Kelvin Harmon isn't fast, but I love how detailed his routes are. Sells vertically, hard breaks, nothing rounded off, deceptive footwork. A real QB puts this throw on him for a big play pic.twitter.com/97qDDHTLqM
— Jon Ledyard (@LedyardNFLDraft) January 4, 2019
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Kelvin Harmon, WR, NC State
Feb 5, 2019 at 4:17 PM
- NYniner85
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Feb 5, 2019 at 4:19 PM
- SunDevilNiner79
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Really?
Hawinks, who played for KS, on what KS seeks on offense out of WRs:
"He needs a speed guy. He needs a guy who is faster than everybody else on the field. That's a big part of his offense. He needs a tough guy. He needs a guy who is going to catch the ball over the middle, be tough as nails and be a little versatile. He needs a third down guy, who has great hands and will, under any circumstance, can move the sticks."
https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/10/16872606/kyle-shanahan-49ers-receiver-marquise-goodwin-pierre-garcon-andrew-hawkins
I went through a lot of KS offenses over the years and I believe Hawkins is 100% correct. Despite having Andre Johnson and Julio Jones, I believe Hawkins is correct. KS seeks 3 prototypes WRs. Bourne is the tough over the middle guy, the replacement for Garcon (Who was one of KS favorite players). Pettis is to replace Goodwin.
Yes KS loves to feed his #1 target. But the player is Kittle, not a WR. KS has always loved the TE and Kittle is by far the most gifted he has had to work with.
I believe the missing piece is the "third-down" guy to operate out of slot. Now Pettis is a bit of a slot weapon, but (and I could be mistaken) in talking to THL on usage, Pettis more often tended to operate in Goodwin's place and not as a slot WR. So if Pettis is meant to be moved to slot, why didn't we see him there more often, especially with Trent Taylor's decline in usage?
Pettis may not have Goodwin's speed, but his intermediate and deep threat capability is made up for by his route running.
I think if you compare KS offenses and his tendencies, you will see he is fitting his trend. He doesn't value high-end WRs unless its REALLY exceptional like Julio or Andre. So if we aren't drafting a top 10 WR, don't expect us to be looking at WRs. We have the prototypes that KS likes. He prefers to rely on his schemes, not chasing after WR talent.
KS on WRs:
""There aren't many (elite guys)," Shanahan began explaining his philosophy with receivers. "If there's a Julio available and you have the opportunity to get him, you go get him. It's worth it. Whatever the price is, whatever the draft pick is, go get him. There aren't too many Julio's on this planet. But you don't have to have that to be successful. "
https://www.49ers.com/news/kyle-shanahan-assesses-49ers-need-at-wide-receiver-20404438
The main reason I think slot is where we draft at is because TT's usage declined. Maybe that's because KS was changing the offense with Jimmy out? Or I think more likely he isn't sold as TT as the future slot. I expect a mid-round slot WR pick.
We were 15th in passing even though we didn't have Jimmy G. The belief that our passing game is in shambles and in desparate need of a "#1 WR" does not fit KS philosophy or where we are really at. If Jimmy and McKinnon were healthy, we'd easily be top 10 passing offense with Bourne/Pettis as WRs.
Feb 5, 2019 at 4:23 PM
- SunDevilNiner79
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Maybe I'm wrong, but my prediction is
1) we don't draft an X/Z WR in the first 3 rounds.
2) we draft a WR that can operate out of the slot in the mid or late rounds (check out the other all-ACC WR Olamide Zaccheaus for a slot WR that I think KS would value).
If I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to call me out.
1) we don't draft an X/Z WR in the first 3 rounds.
2) we draft a WR that can operate out of the slot in the mid or late rounds (check out the other all-ACC WR Olamide Zaccheaus for a slot WR that I think KS would value).
If I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to call me out.
[ Edited by SunDevilNiner79 on Feb 5, 2019 at 4:25 PM ]
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:09 PM
- NCommand
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Interesting take.
Kyle last year towards the end of the year, essentially replaced Goodwin at the X with Pettis, Kittle/Taylor from the slot and Bourne was the mainstay for blocking in the run game and the RZ. Kyle swapped out Bourne for Goodwin's speed at the Z here and there. I actually think Kyle may go for another TE. He likes having speed on the outside to create space for Kittle +1 (Taylor/James/TE2).
Injuries though...damn...Taylor with a shaved spine from nerve damage was never right, Goodwin is always injured, Pettis and his unorthodox Plastic Man body, Kittle fought through a few nagging injuries, etc...Bourne was literally, the only one fully healthy last year.
If Kyle sits on this unit again, I may lose my s**t.
Same.
I like Pettis could be a very good chess piece and a solid #2.
I don't think you can just replace garcon with Bourne and I think we got multiple players that can lineup in the slot already. Like you said Goodwin simply can't stay healthy either.
Someone like Harmon could be a stud in this offense. Maybe wait until the 3rd grab Ridley
There's just too much WR depth in this draft not to upgrade the position group imo.
Most definitely.
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:14 PM
- NYniner85
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Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:Hawinks, who played for KS, on what KS seeks on offense out of WRs:
"He needs a speed guy. He needs a guy who is faster than everybody else on the field. That's a big part of his offense. He needs a tough guy. He needs a guy who is going to catch the ball over the middle, be tough as nails and be a little versatile. He needs a third down guy, who has great hands and will, under any circumstance, can move the sticks."
https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/10/16872606/kyle-shanahan-49ers-receiver-marquise-goodwin-pierre-garcon-andrew-hawkins
I went through a lot of KS offenses over the years and I believe Hawkins is 100% correct. Despite having Andre Johnson and Julio Jones, I believe Hawkins is correct. KS seeks 3 prototypes WRs. Bourne is the tough over the middle guy, the replacement for Garcon (Who was one of KS favorite players). Pettis is to replace Goodwin.
Yes KS loves to feed his #1 target. But the player is Kittle, not a WR. KS has always loved the TE and Kittle is by far the most gifted he has had to work with.
I believe the missing piece is the "third-down" guy to operate out of slot. Now Pettis is a bit of a slot weapon, but (and I could be mistaken) in talking to THL on usage, Pettis more often tended to operate in Goodwin's place and not as a slot WR. So if Pettis is meant to be moved to slot, why didn't we see him there more often, especially with Trent Taylor's decline in usage?
Pettis may not have Goodwin's speed, but his intermediate and deep threat capability is made up for by his route running.
I think if you compare KS offenses and his tendencies, you will see he is fitting his trend. He doesn't value high-end WRs unless its REALLY exceptional like Julio or Andre. So if we aren't drafting a top 10 WR, don't expect us to be looking at WRs. We have the prototypes that KS likes. He prefers to rely on his schemes, not chasing after WR talent.
KS on WRs:
""There aren't many (elite guys)," Shanahan began explaining his philosophy with receivers. "If there's a Julio available and you have the opportunity to get him, you go get him. It's worth it. Whatever the price is, whatever the draft pick is, go get him. There aren't too many Julio's on this planet. But you don't have to have that to be successful. "
https://www.49ers.com/news/kyle-shanahan-assesses-49ers-need-at-wide-receiver-20404438
The main reason I think slot is where we draft at is because TT's usage declined. Maybe that's because KS was changing the offense with Jimmy out? Or I think more likely he isn't sold as TT as the future slot. I expect a mid-round slot WR pick.
We were 15th in passing even though we didn't have Jimmy G. The belief that our passing game is in shambles and in desparate need of a "#1 WR" does not fit KS philosophy or where we are really at. If Jimmy and McKinnon were healthy, we'd easily be top 10 passing offense with Bourne/Pettis as WRs.
A lot of good info here
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:19 PM
- NCommand
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Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Maybe I'm wrong, but my prediction is
1) we don't draft an X/Z WR in the first 3 rounds.
2) we draft a WR that can operate out of the slot in the mid or late rounds (check out the other all-ACC WR Olamide Zaccheaus for a slot WR that I think KS would value).
If I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to call me out.
I appreciate the posts/info. My ideal for the 3 match Kyle's ideal as well.
That said, to match your point (I think we go Z early / you think slot), it would not surprise me to see a TE2 drafted as well and eat into those slot routes. In addition, I bet McKinnon is run out of it as well quite a bit.
But I definitely see your rationale and it makes sense. I could see this strategy as well and it would match Kyle's M.O.
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:22 PM
- NYniner85
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Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:Maybe I'm wrong, but my prediction is
1) we don't draft an X/Z WR in the first 3 rounds.
2) we draft a WR that can operate out of the slot in the mid or late rounds (check out the other all-ACC WR Olamide Zaccheaus for a slot WR that I think KS would value).
If I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to call me out.
I agree with just about everything your saying and you backed it up with some good data.
I'm not sure if he's in love with Bourne as much as you think (maybe that's just my fandom and wanting a upgrade the WR position talking).
I just see him more as a depth WR and we could upgrade at that spot, especially moving on from garçon. There's a couple tough as nails up the middle WRs in this draft. Harmon is proabaly top of that list.
Someone like Ridley in the 3rd makes a lot of sense as well.
Trent Taylor was just on the Simms podcast and said he's finally healthy. It was more of a battle than he thought this yr trying to get where he was in 2017.
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:38 PM
- NYniner85
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Originally posted by NCommand:I appreciate the posts/info. My ideal for the 3 match Kyle's ideal as well.
That said, to match your point (I think we go Z early / you think slot), it would not surprise me to see a TE2 drafted as well and eat into those slot routes. In addition, I bet McKinnon is run out of it as well quite a bit.
But I definitely see your rationale and it makes sense. I could see this strategy as well and it would match Kyle's M.O.
Boy the TE prospects aren't really amazing outside of the guys from Iowa (both will be drafted in the 1st). Kinda like Jance Sternberger though
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:53 PM
- dj43
- Moderator
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Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
We were 15th in passing even though we didn't have Jimmy G. The belief that our passing game is in shambles and in desparate need of a "#1 WR" does not fit KS philosophy or where we are really at. If Jimmy and McKinnon were healthy, we'd easily be top 10 passing offense with Bourne/Pettis as WRs.
That fact alone confirms Kyle's philosophy works.
[ Edited by dj43 on Feb 5, 2019 at 5:53 PM ]
Feb 5, 2019 at 5:56 PM
- Heroism
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I think there's a ton of truth in what SunDevil posted.
Not sure I agree with his sentiment about Kyle loving Bourne, but everything else is just about spot on.
Not sure I agree with his sentiment about Kyle loving Bourne, but everything else is just about spot on.
[ Edited by Heroism on Feb 5, 2019 at 5:56 PM ]
Feb 5, 2019 at 6:02 PM
- John_Candy
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Bosa or Allen in the 1st.
Deebo or Harmon in the 2nd.
Deebo or Harmon in the 2nd.
Feb 5, 2019 at 6:04 PM
- NYniner85
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Originally posted by dj43:That fact alone confirms Kyle's philosophy works.
We also struggled in the red zone...like it was bad. Not sure if it was poor because of lack of talent or poor scheming.
Feb 6, 2019 at 7:40 AM
- SunDevilNiner79
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Originally posted by NYniner85:We also struggled in the red zone...like it was bad. Not sure if it was poor because of lack of talent or poor scheming.
Always been an issue with KS. Check his history.
Only year he was top 10 in RZ was 2012 when Alfred Morris broke out. AM had 11 rushing TDs in red zone
RG3 was a rookie and had 10 TDS and 0 int in RZ, and rushed for 6 TDs. So that's 17 tds on the ground, which must have lead the league
No player had more than 3 RZ TD catches
I don't see an example in KS history that he prefers a RZ receiving target
Feb 6, 2019 at 8:44 AM
- NYniner85
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Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:Always been an issue with KS. Check his history.
Only year he was top 10 in RZ was 2012 when Alfred Morris broke out. AM had 11 rushing TDs in red zone
RG3 was a rookie and had 10 TDS and 0 int in RZ, and rushed for 6 TDs. So that's 17 tds on the ground, which must have lead the league
No player had more than 3 RZ TD catches
I don't see an example in KS history that he prefers a RZ receiving target
Welp that's gotta change lol. Getting a million yards and 4 FGs a game an't gonna cut it
Feb 6, 2019 at 11:57 AM
- FL9er
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Andy Isabella