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Would Peyton have been a better fit than Alex?

  • Oscar
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 10,234
Originally posted by DirtyP:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Makes perfect sense to me. See the answers above. To summarize: When taking into account cost, value, team structure, team members, coaching philosophy, and offensive philosophy (among other things), I believe that Smith is the better fit for THIS TEAM TODAY. Would I take Smith over Manning in a vacuum? Hell no.


I get what you are saying, but with that logic you could also say that Trent Dilfer was a better fit for the Ravens in 2001 than Peyton Manning would have been. It just doesn't sound right to me.

Why do coaches create schemes and systems? To hide a player's deficiencies and accentuate their strengths. I made this point on the podcast - Bill Walsh did it in Cincy with Virgil Carter and Ken Anderson. And sometimes, a coach becomes such an expert in a system he knows what kind of players will maximize the system's potential. But if a player doesn't fit the system it can actually HURT the team more than it helps it.

Manning and Smith excel due to their systems maximizing their traits. Harbaugh's system doesn't maximize Manning's strengths.
Got to go with the Yes's on this one...
Is this a trick question? Better fit? Not better quarterback, right? Clearly Manning is the better QB. Clearly, Manning would have given the niners a better chance to win, because, you know, he's better. Fit? Like, would he carry Harbaugh's golf clubs? Probably not. But, could he have carried this team to a Lombardi? Or better question, would the niners be more likely to win the Lombardi this year with Manning at the helm?

Vegas (and any sane fan) would say, of course yes. He's a first ballot hall of fame quarterback with laser accuracy and unmatched football knowledge and big game experience. Alex would have a hard time breaking the starting line up on at least 20 other NFL teams (see only the Dolphis flirting with him in free agency).
Originally posted by Oscar:
Originally posted by DirtyP:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Makes perfect sense to me. See the answers above. To summarize: When taking into account cost, value, team structure, team members, coaching philosophy, and offensive philosophy (among other things), I believe that Smith is the better fit for THIS TEAM TODAY. Would I take Smith over Manning in a vacuum? Hell no.


I get what you are saying, but with that logic you could also say that Trent Dilfer was a better fit for the Ravens in 2001 than Peyton Manning would have been. It just doesn't sound right to me.

Why do coaches create schemes and systems? To hide a player's deficiencies and accentuate their strengths. I made this point on the podcast - Bill Walsh did it in Cincy with Virgil Carter and Ken Anderson. And sometimes, a coach becomes such an expert in a system he knows what kind of players will maximize the system's potential. But if a player doesn't fit the system it can actually HURT the team more than it helps it.

Manning and Smith excel due to their systems maximizing their traits. Harbaugh's system doesn't maximize Manning's strengths.

I would like you to expand on this before I offer an opinion. Dont want to assume you mean one thing when you might not.
Originally posted by Oscar:
Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:
Any ALL PRO QB is better then Smith, Im starting to buy into what everybody has said all along this defense carried Smith's a$$ all year last year creating turn overs after turn overs & giving the offense great field position. Put Alex Smith of 2011 on the Arizona Cardinals & he doesnt even come close to winning 5 or 6 games. The game manager label STAYS until i see him take the next step. Like Jerry said earlier in the offseason "Its time for Harbaugh to take off the diaper of him" & if he is a REAL NFL QB then start playing like one

There shouldn't be a reason this year to hold him back he has ALL the talent a Pro Bowl QB needs, just imagine what Tom Brady would look like in this offense with all these weapons? Other QB's like that would kill to be surrounded by talent like that (except for Manning he only cares bout $$$$$$$$)

Would Joe Montana have succeeded in a the Mike Martz 7-step offense?

I thought this thread was about Jim Harbaugh's offense NOT Martz offense you are moving away from YOUR own subject here.
  • Oscar
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 10,234
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Oscar:
Originally posted by DirtyP:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Makes perfect sense to me. See the answers above. To summarize: When taking into account cost, value, team structure, team members, coaching philosophy, and offensive philosophy (among other things), I believe that Smith is the better fit for THIS TEAM TODAY. Would I take Smith over Manning in a vacuum? Hell no.


I get what you are saying, but with that logic you could also say that Trent Dilfer was a better fit for the Ravens in 2001 than Peyton Manning would have been. It just doesn't sound right to me.

Why do coaches create schemes and systems? To hide a player's deficiencies and accentuate their strengths. I made this point on the podcast - Bill Walsh did it in Cincy with Virgil Carter and Ken Anderson. And sometimes, a coach becomes such an expert in a system he knows what kind of players will maximize the system's potential. But if a player doesn't fit the system it can actually HURT the team more than it helps it.

Manning and Smith excel due to their systems maximizing their traits. Harbaugh's system doesn't maximize Manning's strengths.

I would like you to expand on this before I offer an opinion. Dont want to assume you mean one thing when you might not.

Harbaugh is a run first kind of coach. At Stanford he ran nearly 68%of the time with basically a top 15 NFL quarterback in COLLEGE. And even then, his offense was designed around the run and designed shot plays down the field. The Harbaugh offense is really one that grinds you down then hits you with one deep when you least expect it. Just ask Joe Staley.

Manning's strength, the thing that sets him apart from just about any other QB, is his ability to read defenses and change the play accordingly. Other QBs are as or more accurate (Brees) and other QBs have better arms (Newton) but there isn't another QB that can read a defense like Manning does.

Harbaugh doesn't need his QB to read defenses and change the play. He needs his QB to hand the ball off, take a shot when Roman calls the play, and take care of the football. Because if you punt, it's no biggie. The offense will grind you down again on the next possession.

In short, we would be nullifying the things that make Manning great by putting him in Harbaugh's offense. Because right now, his arm strength and his accuracy are suffering from his surgery. He has thrown some ugly passes this preseason. John Fox, the defensive coach, was willing to let Peyton do his thing on offense and bring in pieces that Manning would be comfortable with. It's a deference to Manning, which he's earned. Harbaugh isn't even willing to give Manning deference to say "yeah, we made him an offer." We were just "evaluating" him. So both systemically, and personality-wise, I think Smith is the better fit in SF. I still think Harbaugh is a top 5 coach in the NFL, and I still think we should make another deep playoff run. With Alex Smith at the helm.
The one thing that I strongly disagree with you on, is that Manning's ability to read a defense would go to waste in Harbaugh's offense. The Alex crowd said over and over again last year that Alex was able to change the play presnap if his presnap read told him to do so. So either they are flat out wrong, or your write up about Mannings reads would go to waste is flat out wrong.

Just assuming that the Alex camp is the side that is wrong, and Manning wouldnt be allowed to change plays at his leisure, his presnap reads of defenses are still a HUGE asset that would have helped our team. His ability to identify where blitzers are coming from would do wonders for our offensive line (something Alex hasnt shown the ability to do).

And also, assuming that Joe Buck and Troy Aikman werent lying on the broadcast this weekend, Peyton is adapting the the Broncos system, not the other way around. To assume that Peyton wouldnt adapt to our system is nothing more than that. An assumption.
It doesn't matter now. It's over. Everyone knows Manning is light years ahead of Smith. We have to go with what we have.
Originally posted by dRtyrottencowboysfan:
Is that a llama or an alpaca?

Not stout enough to be an alpaca. Could be a sheared llama, perhaps. Oh, and it's dead.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
My only worry would have been:

Denver O-line > 49ers O-line

I still worry about pass protection.

Other than that... Peyton is just a better QB than Alex. I think that's something we can all agree on.

I guess there's the money issue, too. Lulz.

This pretty much sums it up.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
My only worry would have been:

Denver O-line > 49ers O-line

I still worry about pass protection.

Other than that... Peyton is just a better QB than Alex. I think that's something we can all agree on.

I guess there's the money issue, too. Lulz.

This pretty much sums it up.

It doesnt sum up anything. Why does everyone see Peyton as a guy who has to play behind some elite offensive line rather than a QB who makes his OL better (which is the clearly the case....look at the last two seasons sack numers in INDY as evidence). Peyton identifies blitzes presnap better than maybe anyone who has ever played the game. He would make out OL look way better than Alex makes it look.
yes!
Originally posted by fastforward:
There are two huge issues with signing Manning: (1) money, and (2) he is a very iffy long-term solution. Just look at his contract with the Broncos. It can be viewed as either a $18 million one-season tryout, or $66 million three-season deal. The Broncos had no solution at the QB. Elway wanted to get rid of Tim Tebow, and had cap money to burn. Signing Manning isn't a risky proposition. Even if the Manning experiment fails this year, the Broncos won't be that much worse off.

The 49ers are in a different situation. Harbaugh likes Smith. Baalke believes that Smith can be at least a solution in the short-term. If Manning expressed strong interest, they probably would work something out, but with tighter cap room, the 49ers could not go into a bidding war with the Broncos and the Titans. The team has a good fan base that it does not need to drum up further with a star player like Manning.

I think the outcome is for the best. Signing Manning would make this season a huge pressure cooker for the 49ers. It'll be SB or bust. Manning goes down with a season-ending injury will have a huge demoralizing effect, the equivalent of a gambler losing all of his chips on a single hand.

Three ring circus. You have people asking about Manning and his neck. There's Moss with his come back and attitude problem that everyone waiting to explode. If Smith resigned than you have this supposed competition going on. Then reporters asking Harbaugh and Roman how much control of the offense Manning have in every game and how that would dictate the game planning. When the media can't get the answers, they start asking question of the other guys on the team like they should know the answers. Would be crazy all the way around.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Aug 29, 2012 at 2:06 PM ]
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Wodwo:
My only worry would have been:

Denver O-line > 49ers O-line

I still worry about pass protection.

Other than that... Peyton is just a better QB than Alex. I think that's something we can all agree on.

I guess there's the money issue, too. Lulz.

This pretty much sums it up.

It doesnt sum up anything. Why does everyone see Peyton as a guy who has to play behind some elite offensive line rather than a QB who makes his OL better (which is the clearly the case....look at the last two seasons sack numers in INDY as evidence). Peyton identifies blitzes presnap better than maybe anyone who has ever played the game. He would make out OL look way better than Alex makes it look.

Alex has been pretty good against the blitz. So spotting the blitz probably isn't the issue. The line has had issue with straight pressure. This is where mobility > pre-read IMO. A healty 100% Manning certainly would be fine...but the guy out there right now would worry me. I could be wrong and freely admit it...but with our line I am concerned. A little noticed fact, Denver's line wasn't made better this year by Manning. It was amazing last year as well. Maybe another reason Manning chose Denver?
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,612
Peyton Hillis is not a quarterback