There are 125 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.

Yah, meant mid-first. We'd be lucky as hell to get either pair!
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.

Yah, meant mid-first. We'd be lucky as hell to get either pair!

Give us Peterson, Houston and then Kap, Ponder, Dalton, or Stanzi in round 3 and you can call it a day. I wouldnt care what happened after that.
We better not pass up Miller if he is there at #7. This guy is going to win Defensive Rookie of the Year!!
It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.
Originally posted by wadjay:
It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.

I think it is easier to find a corner after the first round than a pass rusher. Anyone else think we should spend at least two picks on cb? We seem very thin with all the chumps we have

[ Edited by YOUNGster08 on Feb 1, 2011 at 10:16:02 ]
Originally posted by wadjay:
It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.

I agree. Even if you scheme coverages, it will mean there's help somewhere back there and that leads to 7-man fronts. There MUST be a stud pass rusher in this situation AND you must stop the run.

With a shut down CB, you can operate 8-man fronts controlling the run and pass without a dominant rusher.
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary. There's a reason why they're drafting Kyle Wilson and bringing in Cromartie even though they already have the best corner in football. To them corner was a bigger need then outside linebacker.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

This doesn't invalidate the quote. He's manufacturing pass-rush because he HAS to, not because he WANTS to. I think the quote is an implication of that. Every strong 3-4 team has one very good 3-4 OLB who can bring pressure and don't rely on a DE to do this (as their primary pass-rusher).
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

SAGE!
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

Right! Peterson. Could happen.

Niners used to be a team that would trade up for a second first rounder if they saw someone they liked. There are a few pass rusher this year that may fit the bill. But no shut down cb like Peterson. Not sure about Prince.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

I don't want to.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Jeff - could it be because more CBs are taken in the draft, and more are available/needed than OLB? Wouldn't that significantly increase the chances of "success" for CBs? Also what's a successful CB? A "shutdown" or a "solid" CB - and how can you evaluate without also evaluating who plays at the LOS for them?

- love learning from you guys...

GM

[ Edited by NinerGM on Feb 1, 2011 at 13:40:56 ]