CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

I would not put any of those guys in the category of excellent, pure, pass rusher. A couple were good, in the Justin Smith-overall way, but not guys who made the other teams change their offense to deal with them.

You will note that I used the term "high quality, if not shutdown" in my post regarding CBs. Lott and Wright were one of the best tandoms the 9ers had. They were early 80s and there is a long list since then. None of the pass rushers you list come close to their category, only Dean and Haley could be mentioned with them.

Edit: Young played both tackle and end; and I would put him on the same level as Dean and Haley--just not as a pure pass rusher.

Edit 2: Doleman was past his prime when the 9ers got him. And Andre Carter was occasionally difficult to block but not always.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 2, 2011 at 07:12:32 ]

its pretty much between Von Miller and Prince Amukamara

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.

this

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.

if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.

what about a 2nd-rounder?

Maybe, my fear is that because we pick "later" in the 2nd due of placement flip, we could lose out on the fringe 1st-2nd round CB's. If the better guys are gone the value at CB might not be great so we either have to reach or bypass till later. I'm assuming we go after a QB in the 3rd, so it does worry me. If we don't get a CB early then we can pretty much write off a new starter. Both CB and OLB should be targets in rounds 1 and 2, but priority and value is up to Trent.

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.

this

I can live with that even though we have some major issues on making plays on balls that are thrown up in less than 2 seconds. I also have a feeling that Fangio will utilize Justin Smith's and McDonald's explosiveness properly.

[ Edited by Joecool on Feb 2, 2011 at 10:45:15 ]

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.

this

I can live with that even though we have some major issues on making plays on balls that are thrown up in less than 2 seconds. I also have a feeling that Fangio will utilize Justin Smith's and McDonald's explosiveness properly.

i hope so either way. the next problem is: what if justin goes down? we've seen what happened against the chargers...

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by jreff22:


Explain Dallas

What about Dallas?

I mentioned this in another thread. One thing to remember if you get a good pass rusher at OLB you're getting another guy in the front 7 that the other team's offense has to account for.

Right now we really only have 2 players with that - Justin Smith and of course Patrick Willis.

You put a stud rush OLB next to Patrick and now they have 2 guys who really need to be accounted for, that's tough to do when you have all the other players in the front 7.

Right now it's not that big of a deal for other teams. They double team Justin and get a guy to look for Willis every play trying to get him out of the picture.

A good corner doesn't do that since he's so far away from the LOS. If they want to avoid him they just don't throw to his side(and he has to be DAMN good for that to be avoided completely)

The argument I keep hearing is a pass rusher makes opposing QB's apparently unable to play effectively. Dallas has one, but ended up 26th in passing D and is in the market for a CB. Why are they looking for CB's if pass rushers make mediocre CB's look good and are soooooo great at stopping the pass? Apparently it doesn't work in Dallas and I'm wondering why!

They have less than mediocre CBs? Of course you need good players at every position if you expect to be an elete team. Question is whether great CBs can win matches against great recievers if there is no pass rush? I like the argument that some coaches/systems can manufacture a pass rush through scheme. Then CBs may be more important?!

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.

True, if the 9ers lose Nate they are in great need for a FA signing. I would not trust a rookie at CB. They really are in a pickle if they can't attract a CB. Fangio may lure a top guy here. We seem to have a bunch of guys who might be able to play safety but not CB. Even Nate may be a better safety.

If Clements and Spencer can stay and revert to the form of year before last, I would be happy. That may happen when Fangio goes to more blitzes. The entire D backfield may look a lot better all of a sudden. Add a top flight rusher and who knows?

Edit: The bold is added--a pass rusher who knocks the hell out of the QB every three or four plays will definately affect QB play. Ask Rogers!

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 2, 2011 at 15:32:34 ]

Originally posted by jreff22:


The argument I keep hearing is a pass rusher makes opposing QB's apparently unable to play effectively. Dallas has one, but ended up 26th in passing D and is in the market for a CB. Why are they looking for CB's if pass rushers make mediocre CB's look good and are soooooo great at stopping the pass? Apparently it doesn't work in Dallas and I'm wondering why!

Hmm...what about Dallas?

Their 2 starting corners are both first rounders. Newman was a top 10 pick. In fact the two corners were drafted essentially higher(combined) than the two (OLB)

Based on YOUR theory they should be shutting down both sides right?

Sometimes it just doesn't come together on the field but you still get better results from ANY corner back there when the pass rush is going in full force.

IF anything the bad numbers in passing defense by the Dallas D shows that it was their corners that struggled and not their pass rush. They were #7 in the league in interceptions, a stat very much helped by rushed/bad throws due to pass rush pressure. And they were 31 in the league in TDs given up aka corners getting burned.

You can't have everything at once. Help the pass rush first then add a corner later on.

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Wait a second, the Packers have below average talent in the secondary? Seriously. Woodson is older but he's still a badass and Williams had one of the best seasons of any CB. Not to mention their safeties are pretty good. Same thing with the Steelers, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good and then Polamolu and Clark are 2 of the best safeties in the NFL.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Wait a second, the Packers have below average talent in the secondary? Seriously. Woodson is older but he's still a badass and Williams had one of the best seasons of any CB. Not to mention their safeties are pretty good. Same thing with the Steelers, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good and then Polamolu and Clark are 2 of the best safeties in the NFL.

I was referring to CBs, and yes Woodson is a great player, but he's not the same guy he was even a year ago. Yes, Tramon Williams is having a great season, but he was an udrafted free agent, which means the Pack didn't have to spend ANY draft pick on him, much less a top pick...same goes with Sam Shields.

I agree, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good CBs, but again, neither are considered great (which was my point). And the Ravens pieced together a collection of CBs who were castoffs (Chris Carr, Josh Wilson and Fabian Washington)...all pretty decent defenders with speed and ball skills (a recurring theme), but made to look much better because of what's going on in front of them.

You still have to have talent at the cornerback spot, no doubt about it. My point was, it doesn't have to be GREAT talent, if you have pass rushers (and great schemes) like those teams do.

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm right because Bill Walsh selected three DB that became a constant throughout three superbowls.

Lol. Jk

Yes.....but....the Niners really didn't start clicking on defense until they got Fred Dean a few games into the 1981 season..... A great pass rusher was the one ingredient missing. Once they got him, they lost once the rest of the season.

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm right because Bill Walsh selected three DB that became a constant throughout three superbowls.

Lol. Jk

Yes.....but....the Niners really didn't start clicking on defense until they got Fred Dean a few games into the 1981 season..... A great pass rusher was the one ingredient missing. Once they got him, they lost once the rest of the season.

And Walsh didn't select those DBs until his 3rd season. Before that, he hadn't even drafted a CB before the 3rd round. In other words, he fixed a lot of the structural problems with roster first before finally addressing the secondary in his 3rd year.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.

if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.

what about a 2nd-rounder?

Maybe, my fear is that because we pick "later" in the 2nd due of placement flip, we could lose out on the fringe 1st-2nd round CB's. If the better guys are gone the value at CB might not be great so we either have to reach or bypass till later. I'm assuming we go after a QB in the 3rd, so it does worry me. If we don't get a CB early then we can pretty much write off a new starter. Both CB and OLB should be targets in rounds 1 and 2, but priority and value is up to Trent.

I think the Niners take best player available at CB or OLB at number 7 and if there is a QB they really like in the second round they grab him then....rather than wait until the third when the likelihood of that guy being available becomes much less.

In the third they go CB or OLB, whichever position they don't cover in the first round. IMHO, they will go after the best pass rusher at OLB or DE they can at number 7.

Cameron Jordan was unstoppable at the Senior Bowl and he would look real nice opposite Justin Smith at LDE in the Niners' 3-4. Good DLmen are really hard to find (as hard as good pass rushers) and I think Cameron is going to be another Richard Seymour. Interesting dilemma.......If it came down to Quinn or Jordan, which one would you all take?