CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by tjd808185:


I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.

Their front 7 can at least give them a push. Manny and Parys cannot do that. If it wasn't for Justin Smith we'd be even worse.

Look at the league...how many shut down corners are there? Revis? Asomugha? Who else? Bailey?

How many good pass rushers out there? Merriman(when he was healthy), Dumervil, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Ware, Spencer, Matthews, Wake and I'm sure I'm forgetting some obvious ones.

It's very difficult to find a type of corner who can completely shut down the other teams #1. I like Peterson a ton but I'm not even sure if he can be that type of player. I think Prince will be a good corner but he won't be on that level. The fact that some people talk about converting him to a safety shows just that.

You improve the pass rush and the guys who are there get better. Take a corner later in the draft and they'll play better.

Look at the Packers. They got Clay Matthews and their defense improved big time. You think Tramon Williams is actually a good player?

And you keep talking about the Jets...let's not forget that same Jets defense gave up 45 points to the same Patriots team earlier in the year and 38 points to Chicago.

The team with a good pass rush were never that bad.

It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Originally posted by tjd808185:


It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.

It shouldn't happen based on your comments. If the Jets corners are so good they can stop Manning and Brady and their offenses then they should be able to destroy lesser qbs/teams.

The record breaking defense was in 2000 btw. And before you look yes they did give up 1 game of 30+ points but that was to record setting day from Jimmy Smith. The most they gave up the rest of the year was 23 points.

It just further proves my point that with a pass rush you usually have better defensive output. If you rely on your corners to bail you out defensively and your pass rush struggles the odds of your defense getting beat goes up.

You're missing my main point here.

1 guy pressures the QB and the rest of the defense looks better because of an early/bad throw

Or you need to make sure ALL of the dbs have great coverage so the QB cannot find anyone open and gets sacked due to great coverage.

What do you think has a higher success rate?

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by tjd808185:


It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.

It shouldn't happen based on your comments. If the Jets corners are so good they can stop Manning and Brady and their offenses then they should be able to destroy lesser qbs/teams.

The record breaking defense was in 2000 btw. And before you look yes they did give up 1 game of 30+ points but that was to record setting day from Jimmy Smith. The most they gave up the rest of the year was 23 points.

It just further proves my point that with a pass rush you usually have better defensive output. If you rely on your corners to bail you out defensively and your pass rush struggles the odds of your defense getting beat goes up.

You're missing my main point here.

1 guy pressures the QB and the rest of the defense looks better because of an early/bad throw

Or you need to make sure ALL of the dbs have great coverage so the QB cannot find anyone open and gets sacked due to great coverage.

What do you think has a higher success rate?

they only have revis he guarded wayne he had 1 receptiion for 1 yard

wayne and manning is probally the top tandemn in the nfl

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

I hope you mean mid-first. He'd be a steal at 45.

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Miller does remind me of lawson... I'm not sure about him, he looks as if he just tries the edge every play he's going to have to learn some inside move and bulk up!

Lawson is under-rated because his strength is not rushing the passer. He is extremely athletic and good at all other aspects of the game. If the 9ers can find a pass rush terror to work with Lawson the team will have a great LBing group. Lawson, Spikes, Willis and Rookie with Brooks, Bowman, McKillop and Laboy as backups is quite a crew.

Finding that pass rushing guy would seem to be a priority, unless the Fangio system can manufature a rush as has been mentioned. Stanford used a lot of movement to confuse the O, so perhaps they have what they need?

Its fun to play with options...how bout Willis, Spikes, McKillop and Bowman?

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.

Yah, meant mid-first. We'd be lucky as hell to get either pair!

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

you mean mid first?

Would you have an issue with Prince-Houston as 1 and 2? Or Peterson-Houston.....my wish.

Yah, meant mid-first. We'd be lucky as hell to get either pair!

Give us Peterson, Houston and then Kap, Ponder, Dalton, or Stanzi in round 3 and you can call it a day. I wouldnt care what happened after that.

We better not pass up Miller if he is there at #7. This guy is going to win Defensive Rookie of the Year!!

It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.

Originally posted by wadjay:
It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.

I think it is easier to find a corner after the first round than a pass rusher. Anyone else think we should spend at least two picks on cb? We seem very thin with all the chumps we have

[ Edited by YOUNGster08 on Feb 1, 2011 at 10:16:02 ]

Originally posted by wadjay:
It seems like most folks are in favor of pass rusher over CB. I'm certainly not saying I disagree, and the argument that a pass rush makes the CBs better is definitely a good one.

However, another piece to consider is that pass rush is something that can be heavily influenced by scheme and role-players. It is possible to generate a good pass rush without a monster pass rusher. In fact, that's what all good defenses do since even the best pass rushers are shut down at times.

I think that coverage is much more difficult to scheme. You can try to give a guy help, you can try to confuse the offense with zones (and these things will work against poor and rookie qbs), but if you don't have guys that can cover, good qbs will find that every time.

I would personally probably go with a stud rusher (especially looking at our team) but I do think it's a very close call.

I agree. Even if you scheme coverages, it will mean there's help somewhere back there and that leads to 7-man fronts. There MUST be a stud pass rusher in this situation AND you must stop the run.

With a shut down CB, you can operate 8-man fronts controlling the run and pass without a dominant rusher.

Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.