CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

wow...you're way off here man.

Saying the Steelers haven't gotten their pass rushers in the first round means little. Right now there are more 3-4 defensive teams than ever. For a while there there were like 2-3 teams who ran the defense the Steelers being one of them. They were able to take the so called "tweeners" and turn them into great OLB picks. That is no longer the case. They got Woodley because he dropped due to his small size. Harrison was a rare find who developed later.

Troy does help their defense a lot but he's helped by the talented linebackers in front of him. Put him on the 49ers and he's not nearly the player he is with the Stelers.

You mention what the Jets did as a good example? See my post above. They played 2 terrific games against receivers who they matched up against very well. The Steelers offered issues for them because they're faster receivers as opposed to the possession guys the Colts and Pats had.

The Jets also have a pretty decent front 7. They may not be on the level of the Steelers but they're pretty good.

As for the players leaving the system and not playing well - Joey Porter had his best sack season with the Dolphins after leaving the Steelers.

Like I said, to get a pass rush you just need one guy to pressure the QB. If you only have one top corner there is still the rest of the field that leaves you liable.

What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh d gets pretty average.

As for Aso I can find good pass rushers on sh*tty defenses too. I do like your Giants point because you're right that defensive line is the only reason they're holding a Super Bowl ring,. I give you that point. But building that is easier said than done.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Jan 31, 2011 at 13:52:39 ]

Originally posted by tjd808185:


What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh gets pretty average.

Do you really need a reminder that Troy isn't a corner? The Steelers have Ike Taylor, McFadden and Randall Gay as their top 3 corners I believe. Hardly anything to write home about.

You didn't answer my question, who did the Giants have the year they shut down the Patriots offense - best offense of all time?

You can't have everything at once. I don't see Amakumara on the same level as Aso or Revis so why add a good but not great corner onto a defense which has no pass rush.

Once again...a 3-4 D with a DE and ILB being 1 and 2 in sacks is doing it wrong.

FYI...on the Jets the leaders are

Byron Thomas
Calvin Pace
Jason Taylor

All are 3-4 OLBs. Not great sack numbers but all 3 of those guys are better rushers than Lawson or Haralson. Hell those two were 5th and 6th on our team.

That's just terrible. Spencer, Clements and Brown are better corners than a lot of teams have. We don't need a top 10 corner to improve this defense. We need a pass rush.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by tjd808185:


What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh gets pretty average.

Do you really need a reminder that Troy isn't a corner? The Steelers have Ike Taylor, McFadden and Randall Gay as their top 3 corners I believe. Hardly anything to write home about.

You didn't answer my question, who did the Giants have the year they shut down the Patriots offense - best offense of all time?

You can't have everything at once. I don't see Amakumara on the same level as Aso or Revis so why add a good but not great corner onto a defense which has no pass rush.

Once again...a 3-4 D with a DE and ILB being 1 and 2 in sacks is doing it wrong.

FYI...on the Jets the leaders are

Byron Thomas
Calvin Pace
Jason Taylor

All are 3-4 OLBs. Not great sack numbers but all 3 of those guys are better rushers than Lawson or Haralson. Hell those two were 5th and 6th on our team.

That's just terrible. Spencer, Clements and Brown are better corners than a lot of teams have. We don't need a top 10 corner to improve this defense. We need a pass rush.

I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

True, but the Steelers didn't need too for years, since there were so few 3-4 teams. But even more to your point, they have the kind of consistency in their front office/head coaching spot that truly allows them to draft system-specific players year-after-year (usually ones that can be found later), and allow them to be groomed for a few years or so and indoctrinated in the Steeler way, then get plugged right in to their defense without skipping a beat.

Few if any other teams have that kind of continuity; what they look for in terms of talent shifts almost every 2-4 years, so you can't just plug certain "types" in that you find later in the draft.

So I get your point completely, but I really think the Steelers are the exception and not the rule when it comes to drafting pass rushers (see other, more recently successful 3-4 teams like the Packers, Chargers, Cowboys, etc.).

[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 31, 2011 at 14:44:59 ]

Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary. There's a reason why they're drafting Kyle Wilson and bringing in Cromartie even though they already have the best corner in football. To them corner was a bigger need then outside linebacker.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

I'm probally looking towards free agency and if there is a free agency there's some pretty good options. Hali, Woodley

I'm not against taking Von Miller or Quinn I just want the best player available. There's a very high bust ratio amongst pass rushers and the difference between Brian Orakpo and Aaron Maybin is only one pick. I know that goes for every position but you can't pick people just because you have the need.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

I'm probally looking towards free agency and if there is a free agency there's some pretty good options. Hali, Woodley

I'm not against taking Von Miller or Quinn I just want the best player available. There's a very high bust ratio amongst pass rushers and the difference between Brian Orakpo and Aaron Maybin is only one pick. I know that goes for every position but you can't pick people just because you have the need.

Hey, I'm all for getting a veteran like Hali; I'm just worried about the ability to secure someone like him (or Woodley, or even Wimbley) given the unknown status/timing of the CBA. But I think when need, talent and value converge (and I believe that's the case for Miller and Quinn), you go ahead and make that draft pick IMO.

That said, I can see both of those guys gone by #7, so we may not have to worry about them.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.

WE TOOK A GAME CHANGER AT 6 V.D.... A tight end, but one that has a skill set the nfl has never seen. Now the question is who's that game changer in this draft is it miller, or prince... cam johnson... who's the guy we need bpa, and we need to fill a hole with this pick. No qb is worth the spot, so that leaves us with either cb, or Passrusher. Depends on who Jim, Trent, and Vic think will fit best in the system.

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.

WE TOOK A GAME CHANGER AT 6 V.D.... A tight end, but one that has a skill set the nfl has never seen. Now the question is who's that game changer in this draft is it miller, or prince... cam johnson... who's the guy we need bpa, and we need to fill a hole with this pick. No qb is worth the spot, so that leaves us with either cb, or Passrusher. Depends on who Jim, Trent, and Vic think will fit best in the system.

VD was a pretty good pick I think, even though he has tried our patience at times.

Quinn vs Miller or Peterson vs Prince? But then there's Green! Is he the biggest game changer? Glad it's Baalke and Harbaugh making this decsion!

Miller does remind me of lawson... I'm not sure about him, he looks as if he just tries the edge every play he's going to have to learn some inside move and bulk up!

Originally posted by tjd808185:


I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.

Their front 7 can at least give them a push. Manny and Parys cannot do that. If it wasn't for Justin Smith we'd be even worse.

Look at the league...how many shut down corners are there? Revis? Asomugha? Who else? Bailey?

How many good pass rushers out there? Merriman(when he was healthy), Dumervil, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Ware, Spencer, Matthews, Wake and I'm sure I'm forgetting some obvious ones.

It's very difficult to find a type of corner who can completely shut down the other teams #1. I like Peterson a ton but I'm not even sure if he can be that type of player. I think Prince will be a good corner but he won't be on that level. The fact that some people talk about converting him to a safety shows just that.

You improve the pass rush and the guys who are there get better. Take a corner later in the draft and they'll play better.

Look at the Packers. They got Clay Matthews and their defense improved big time. You think Tramon Williams is actually a good player?

And you keep talking about the Jets...let's not forget that same Jets defense gave up 45 points to the same Patriots team earlier in the year and 38 points to Chicago.

The team with a good pass rush were never that bad.