CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Disagree..

A lockdown corner takes away the opposing team's best WR, not their whole passing game..

Stud 3-4 OLBs aren't easy to find. If they were, we would have stumbled on to one by now, even with Scotty being a drunk and all.

Look at all the teams running a 3-4, not even all those teams have a stud OLB that can bring it like a Matthews or Ware.

Look at guys like Quentin Groves and Aaron Maybin, lots of people around here thought there were can't miss OLB's.

Finding a stud OLB is harder than it appears, not like going to Safeway and picking a bag of Doritos.

[ Edited by DaveWilcox on Jan 29, 2011 at 11:22:53 ]

I don't necessarily agree Peterson's the better CB than Amukamara...Mallett torched him pretty good. However, I don't think Baalke could go wrong drafting either guy. As for the argument of pass rusher vs CB, that's a tough call. In recent history, I think there have been a considerable number of CB's who have made bigger impacts than pass rushers. For every good to great PR, there have been several impact CB's. Really, I don't think Baalke can go wrong taking either Prince or Miller.

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Disagree..

A lockdown corner takes away the opposing team's best WR, not their whole passing game..

Stud 3-4 OLBs aren't easy to find. If they were, we would have stumbled on to one by now, even with Scotty being a drunk and all.

Look at all the teams running a 3-4, not even all those teams have a stud OLB that can bring it like a Matthews or Ware.

Look at guys like Quentin Groves and Aaron Maybin, lots of people around here thought there were can't miss OLB's.

Finding a stud OLB is harder than it appears, not like going to Safeway and picking a bag of Doritos.

The Jets had a stud CB but not a stud OLB, they had a significantly better defense than Dallas who had a stud OLB but no stud CB.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Disagree..

A lockdown corner takes away the opposing team's best WR, not their whole passing game..

Stud 3-4 OLBs aren't easy to find. If they were, we would have stumbled on to one by now, even with Scotty being a drunk and all.

Look at all the teams running a 3-4, not even all those teams have a stud OLB that can bring it like a Matthews or Ware.

Look at guys like Quentin Groves and Aaron Maybin, lots of people around here thought there were can't miss OLB's.

Finding a stud OLB is harder than it appears, not like going to Safeway and picking a bag of Doritos.

The Jets had a stud CB but not a stud OLB, they had a significantly better defense than Dallas who had a stud OLB but no stud CB.

I dont think this is a fair comparison. The Jets spent a ton of money aquiring a very talented backfield. It's not just Revis, it's the guys around him. The formula seems to be aquire a very talented backfield and confuse with the blitz. I suppose that is one way to do it.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Disagree..

A lockdown corner takes away the opposing team's best WR, not their whole passing game..

Stud 3-4 OLBs aren't easy to find. If they were, we would have stumbled on to one by now, even with Scotty being a drunk and all.

Look at all the teams running a 3-4, not even all those teams have a stud OLB that can bring it like a Matthews or Ware.

Look at guys like Quentin Groves and Aaron Maybin, lots of people around here thought there were can't miss OLB's.

Finding a stud OLB is harder than it appears, not like going to Safeway and picking a bag of Doritos.

The Jets had a stud CB but not a stud OLB, they had a significantly better defense than Dallas who had a stud OLB but no stud CB.

I dont think this is a fair comparison. The Jets spent a ton of money aquiring a very talented backfield. It's not just Revis, it's the guys around him. The formula seems to be aquire a very talented backfield and confuse with the blitz. I suppose that is one way to do it.

Eh they have Cromartie and they drafted Wilson. But one of their starting safeties was out and the other one isn't Reed or Polamolu.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

Can anyone formulize why Peterson would have a greater impact than the top pass rushers, Quinn and Miller?

a pas rush wont be able to get to the qb all the time however a shutdown corner 95% of timie will shutdown the WR

this would be different if we ran a 4-3 but in a 3-4 stud OLB can be found all over the boards good and even great corners are rarely found outside the first round

Disagree..

A lockdown corner takes away the opposing team's best WR, not their whole passing game..

Stud 3-4 OLBs aren't easy to find. If they were, we would have stumbled on to one by now, even with Scotty being a drunk and all.

Look at all the teams running a 3-4, not even all those teams have a stud OLB that can bring it like a Matthews or Ware.

Look at guys like Quentin Groves and Aaron Maybin, lots of people around here thought there were can't miss OLB's.

Finding a stud OLB is harder than it appears, not like going to Safeway and picking a bag of Doritos.

The Jets had a stud CB but not a stud OLB, they had a significantly better defense than Dallas who had a stud OLB but no stud CB.

I dont think this is a fair comparison. The Jets spent a ton of money aquiring a very talented backfield. It's not just Revis, it's the guys around him. The formula seems to be aquire a very talented backfield and confuse with the blitz. I suppose that is one way to do it.

But that strategy failed miserably at first until they began to scheme. I would say if New England had a viable outside threat at WR, they wouldn't have lost to the Jets.

They might have still. The Colts had Wayne and look how that turned out.

Originally posted by Quitugua:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I want either a stud DE that we can pair with Justin Smith or an OLB that can pressure QBs.

Our DBs would look good if there was havoc in the backfield more often.

By this logic, Prince should be below Quinn, Miller, and Darius on boards. So far, no one has made an argument for why we should draft Prince over these guys. I know there are many of you out there.

I'm starting to buy into that logic.... The Niners defense would be upgraded tremendously if they had a stud pass rusher....and they can still get a fine CB prospect in the second round. By then, the stud pass rushers will probably be gone.

Stud pass rushers do not grow on trees. Both Indy (Dwight Freeney) and Dallas (DeMarcus Ware) were criticized at the time for drafting these guys too high....but both teams knew how important stud pass rushers are...so they pulled the trigger...and both teams were right to do so...

its very rare for shutdown corners to be found outside the first round hpwever u can find a lot of elite pass rushers especially OLB outside first round

This is ture, but the argument isn't necessarily about an elite player at one position vs. an elite player at another, but more so, what that elite player can do for the entire defense. On more occasions than not, the elite pass rusher makes the defense look better than the elite CB does. When you think about the great defenses of all time, the 80s Bears, 80s Giants, 70s Steelers, 90s Bucks, Ravens of the 200s, etc, or even some second tier defenses like Buddy Ryan's Eagles, they were known for their pass rush.

If my memory serves me well. I can recall & remember that we've had both in the '80's & '90's...

We certainly did. But I think it's safe to say that in 1981, but taking nothing away from our All World secondary, I think Fred Dean took that defense to another level.

Pass rushers do much more for the defense. They make the QB uncomfortable. They make them throw when they don't want to. They make them throw before they want to. They may alter passes, force fumbles, can create tackles behind the LOS, etc. P

People have made an argument that a great pass rusher doesn't always equal a great defense. There are always exceptions to the rule (see the Houston Texans). However I honestly can't recall a great defense that had a great corner, but a poor pass rush. Our D-Line is strong, the interior of our linebackers are strong, we have one solid OLB (in Manny Lawson), and now we need the pass rusher that defenses must game plan for. This frees up guys like Willis, Bowman, Lawson, Laboy, Brooks, etc. The pick of a potentially dominant OLB is probably the final piece to the puzzle of us having one of the top front 7s in the league (top 10 at least). However, even with a corner like Prince, who I do like, our secondary still will be the weakest link on our defense. We'd look much better on defense with Robert Quinn in the frist and Brandon Harris in the second vs. taking Prince in the first and one of the converted DEs in the 2nd round.

Pass rush would be my choice but it would depend on the players at both positions being equal game changers. Best play maker available--BPMA.

A questlion for the board: Who would you rather have on the 9ers next season, a Prime Time at CB or Charles Haley at DE/OLB? Both are at the top of their positions historically.

I think you draft the best player available. IMO, Prince is ranked pretty high for a guy that got burned by Will Blackmon. I'm not sure about Von Miller other than hes a good pass rusher. If he can hold his own on coverage I say take him. We would be taking him higher than we took P. Willis.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

plain and simple.

Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Good corners allow you to blitz more often and more creatively. Green Bay, the Jets they blitz all of the time because they know those corners can cover man to man. Great corners/ safeties take away options. You take Troy off Pittsburgh and they're an average defense.

Did you guys watch those Jets games? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were scared to death to challenge Revis. Best QB's in the league too. You know how much easier it is to gameplan for someone when they won't even look at their best option.

I'm not arguing for Patterson or Prince or Von Miller I just want the best player because you give me an elite player and you can win around them. Don't buy this pass rushers more important than corners stuff. Elite players and great coaching gets you to the promise land.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

wow...you're way off here man.

Saying the Steelers haven't gotten their pass rushers in the first round means little. Right now there are more 3-4 defensive teams than ever. For a while there there were like 2-3 teams who ran the defense the Steelers being one of them. They were able to take the so called "tweeners" and turn them into great OLB picks. That is no longer the case. They got Woodley because he dropped due to his small size. Harrison was a rare find who developed later.

Troy does help their defense a lot but he's helped by the talented linebackers in front of him. Put him on the 49ers and he's not nearly the player he is with the Stelers.

You mention what the Jets did as a good example? See my post above. They played 2 terrific games against receivers who they matched up against very well. The Steelers offered issues for them because they're faster receivers as opposed to the possession guys the Colts and Pats had.

The Jets also have a pretty decent front 7. They may not be on the level of the Steelers but they're pretty good.

As for the players leaving the system and not playing well - Joey Porter had his best sack season with the Dolphins after leaving the Steelers.

Like I said, to get a pass rush you just need one guy to pressure the QB. If you only have one top corner there is still the rest of the field that leaves you liable.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Good corners allow you to blitz more often and more creatively. Green Bay, the Jets they blitz all of the time because they know those corners can cover man to man. Great corners/ safeties take away options. You take Troy off Pittsburgh and they're an average defense.

Did you guys watch those Jets games? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were scared to death to challenge Revis. Best QB's in the league too. You know how much easier it is to gameplan for someone when they won't even look at their best option.

I'm not arguing for Patterson or Prince or Von Miller I just want the best player because you give me an elite player and you can win around them. Don't buy this pass rushers more important than corners stuff. Elite players and great coaching gets you to the promise land.

You're acting like the Jets can't get a pass rush at all. What happened with the Steelers? Revis didn't even match up against Wallace til Cromartie got banged up.

What the Jets did happens very infrequently. How about what the Giants did to NE in 07? That was more impressive. Who were their corners?

Look at Oakland - sure teams avoid throwing against Aso but that leaves the rest of the field. If there is no pass rush an average, let a lone a great QB will find an open guy.

The depth at corner in this draft is much better than at OLB. We need to fix the pass rush on this team. It makes the whole secondary better.

Blitzing can get you killed by a good qb. If you can have one guy who can consistently get pressure on the QB it makes everyone else better.