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2019 Defensive Progress & Robert Saleh Hot-seat Tracker

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  • jcs
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 29,832
Originally posted by susweel:
why do we need 3 saleh threads ?

We don't. Odd the mods are allowing it.
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by susweel:
why do we need 3 saleh threads ?

We don't. Odd the mods are allowing it.

favoritism
  • evil
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 38,291
Originally posted by RonMexico:
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by susweel:
why do we need 3 saleh threads ?

We don't. Odd the mods are allowing it.

favoritism

Allowing it for now, eventually in due time it will be merged.

But for now, personally I want to let the OP stand out as it was a well written and well thought out post. It has produced some well thought out and written responses and rebuttals furthering healthy discussion and debates with regards to a hot topic in Niner land.

It is not hurting anything and is instead creating good back and forth.
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by RonMexico:
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by susweel:
why do we need 3 saleh threads ?

We don't. Odd the mods are allowing it.

favoritism

Allowing it for now, eventually in due time it will be merged.

But for now, personally I want to let the OP stand out as it was a well written and well thought out post. It has produced some well thought out and written responses and rebuttals furthering healthy discussion and debates with regards to a hot topic in Niner land.

It is not hurting anything and is instead creating good back and forth.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.

Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.

Yup...finally rid ourselves on Donte Johnson. Focused on Witherspoon. Stayed with Mabin. Drafted Tarvarius Moore and D.J. Reed. Brought in Sherman. What other unit has been given more resources over the past two off seasons?

At some point, you need to teach these players and develop them.

How much are those guys contributing?
Please explain the value of Moore as a resource for Saleh.
Didn't feel that this warranted going in another thread as this was a multidimensional topic that, while it involves Saleh, expands much further beyond him into what the real issue is.

The point here is to make the case that perhaps we should focus on a more detailed level at what really is the problem instead of blanket blaming Saleh because he's the DC.

In a nutshell, so far we've pointed out the following.

1.The team has improved statistically from last year and they have steadily addressed many of the early season issues that had been happening. Have to give some credit for that.

2. The mental errors are almost always coming from Colbert or the player at the LCB position. Tartt and Sherman know their assignments, why doesn't the other side? Beyond Saleh, who is responsible for the secondary? Think about that too.

3. We know we lack talent at edge which makes the secondary look even worse than it already is.

Like I said on the other page, we already tried changing players at left CB, and it hasn't worked. Our options are limited but at this point, players need to start getting shipped off so the message is loud and clear that basic mistakes are unacceptable and their jobs are on the line if they continue to fail to execute.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Oct 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM ]
Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by susweel:
why do we need 3 saleh threads ?

We don't. Odd the mods are allowing it.

It give you all another thread to complain in. Be grateful.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Didn't feel that this warranted going in another thread as this was a multidimensional topic that, while it involves Saleh, expands much further beyond him into what the real issue is.

The point here is to make the case that perhaps we should focus on a more detailed level at what really is the problem instead of blanket blaming Saleh because he's the DC.

In a nutshell, so far we've pointed out the following.

1.The team has improved statistically from last year and they have steadily addressed many of the early season issues that had been happening. Have to give some credit for that.

2. The mental errors are almost always coming from Colbert or the player at the LCB position. Tartt and Sherman know their assignments, why doesn't the other side? Beyond Saleh, who is responsible for the secondary? Think about that too.

3. We know we lack talent at edge which makes the secondary look even worse than it already is.

Like I said on the other page, we already tried changing players at left CB, and it hasn't worked. Our options are limited but at this point, players need to start getting shipped off so the message is loud and clear that basic mistakes are unacceptable and their jobs are on the line if they continue to fail to execute.
Excellent post and great thread overall OTC. Thank-you for raising some of the underlying, football issues with the defense without ignoring the issues about the coaching and scheme. Great job!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by E-49er:
Sherman said the other DBs are not playing their assignments how they should be. So I think you have to put some of that on Jeff Hafley the DB coach. The players also should take responsibility of course.So why are they confused about their assignments? ALL of the DBs were here last year and there wasn't breakdowns like this in the secondary.

FTFY

Legit point...

i wonder if Fred Warner taking over the green dot has had adverse effects. or dare i even say, the absence of eric reid
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.


Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.


Excellent post these metrics show the defense is improving and the defense lacks talent and experience.

Brock by brick applies to both sides of the ball.

Agree. Great post

Originally posted by kujon11:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by E-49er:
Sherman said the other DBs are not playing their assignments how they should be. So I think you have to put some of that on Jeff Hafley the DB coach. The players also should take responsibility of course.So why are they confused about their assignments? ALL of the DBs were here last year and there wasn't breakdowns like this in the secondary.

FTFY

Legit point...

i wonder if Fred Warner taking over the green dot has had adverse effects. or dare i even say, the absence of eric reid

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think they felt he would get it down eventually but the team is likely suffering growing pains it didn't have last year in terms of communication because we had a veteran experienced in the system (Coyle) relaying the calls. Now it makes sense why they liked him so much. We didn't blow coverage like we are now, but the plays we gave up came more due to simple lack of physical ability compared to the opponent.

I get that without Malcolm in the first two games, winning one of them, they probably felt we didn't need to take the radio from Warner but now it's clear that was a mistake. Yes, the coach takes blame for that one. My take is that Malcolm should be the one with the radio now. No reason to keep it with Warner until he knows the defense inside and out like a veteran.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
A lot of fans pretend to hold players accountable while simultaneously calling for Saleh to be fired. Let's be honest and clear who we really believe is mostly at fault.

My opinion right now is it seems to be isolated to individual players the most so that's why I'm backing off Saleh recently. While the group has improved at tackling and avoiding penalties, there are a few guys who we see blow it weekly.

Other players on the team seem to know how to do their job, but it's the same individual players screwing up their assignments every week: Colbert and the collection of bums at LCB.. Ward, Witherspoon, and Mabin.

Witherspoon: burnt toast and penalty machine
Ward: injury prone, mistake prone
Mabin: Just plain sucks at coverage.

At this point they might as well try Reed or Moore and see if they have any better luck but as raw as they are it would likely be just another series of growing pains. So I look at that and see that it has to feel like an impossible situation for the coaches on defense having to choose between the dumb, the penalty machine, or the least talented.

This is an extremely reasonable assessment.

At a micro level, yes there are a few players that consistently blow it.

At a macro level, the buck still stops with the DC because he owns the defense and if guys aren't repeatedly performing at a fundamental level, you have to really consider sending a message (like they did last year). Whether it's benching players or finding a street FA who can simply be in the right spot.

I can deal with a discrepancy in talent and accept that a reason why a defense can't complete, but that has to be IMHO evaluated when said player(s) are doing the fundamentals first.

Thoughts?

This is why I won't be shocked if the team ships off Witherspoon even though it's only his second year.

Also, let's look at the fact that it's specifically those players in the secondary, so maybe more people should be giving more flack to that position coach than Saleh himself. I have to believe Saleh has emphasized that Haftley has to figure out a way to get things through these boneheads' minds so they stop busting assignments.

They've tried shuffling players already, the next step is to send those guys packing.

But it's not fact. It's the entire coverage unit minus Sherman. Check out the film thread...Ward, Mabin, LB's, Colbert, Tartt, Witherspoon, etc. The entire coverage unit is blowing it and taking turns throughout the games and from one game to the next. Colbert blows it and then he does the right thing the next game and then Ward blows it. I agree...if Hafley is an issue, then that too falls on the DC eventually if the same issues persist. And that's just coverage assignments.
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.

Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.

Yup...finally rid ourselves on Donte Johnson. Focused on Witherspoon. Stayed with Mabin. Drafted Tarvarius Moore and D.J. Reed. Brought in Sherman. What other unit has been given more resources over the past two off seasons?

At some point, you need to teach these players and develop them.

How much are those guys contributing?
Please explain the value of Moore as a resource for Saleh.

You're uncanny at moving the goal posts on topics. The topic is to blame the talent, right? This FO clearly spent a huge portion of it's resources on the secondary whether playing today or 2019. I'll say it again..."At some point, you need to teach these players and develop them."
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
A lot of fans pretend to hold players accountable while simultaneously calling for Saleh to be fired. Let's be honest and clear who we really believe is mostly at fault.

My opinion right now is it seems to be isolated to individual players the most so that's why I'm backing off Saleh recently. While the group has improved at tackling and avoiding penalties, there are a few guys who we see blow it weekly.

Other players on the team seem to know how to do their job, but it's the same individual players screwing up their assignments every week: Colbert and the collection of bums at LCB.. Ward, Witherspoon, and Mabin.

Witherspoon: burnt toast and penalty machine
Ward: injury prone, mistake prone
Mabin: Just plain sucks at coverage.

At this point they might as well try Reed or Moore and see if they have any better luck but as raw as they are it would likely be just another series of growing pains. So I look at that and see that it has to feel like an impossible situation for the coaches on defense having to choose between the dumb, the penalty machine, or the least talented.

This is an extremely reasonable assessment.

At a micro level, yes there are a few players that consistently blow it.

At a macro level, the buck still stops with the DC because he owns the defense and if guys aren't repeatedly performing at a fundamental level, you have to really consider sending a message (like they did last year). Whether it's benching players or finding a street FA who can simply be in the right spot.

I can deal with a discrepancy in talent and accept that a reason why a defense can't complete, but that has to be IMHO evaluated when said player(s) are doing the fundamentals first.

Thoughts?

This is why I won't be shocked if the team ships off Witherspoon even though it's only his second year.

Also, let's look at the fact that it's specifically those players in the secondary, so maybe more people should be giving more flack to that position coach than Saleh himself. I have to believe Saleh has emphasized that Haftley has to figure out a way to get things through these boneheads' minds so they stop busting assignments.

They've tried shuffling players already, the next step is to send those guys packing.

But it's not fact. It's the entire coverage unit minus Sherman. Check out the film thread...Ward, Mabin, LB's, Colbert, Tartt, Witherspoon, etc. The entire coverage unit is blowing it and taking turns throughout the games and from one game to the next. Colbert blows it and then he does the right thing the next game and then Ward blows it. I agree...if Hafley is an issue, then that too falls on the DC eventually if the same issues persist. And that's just coverage assignments.

Only explanation I can come up with is the one above about the radio calls. Witherspoon and Colbert are in year two, there's no excuse for them to blow basic concepts like this, so seeing stuff like this makes you wonder what other explanation could there be.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Oct 17, 2018 at 4:08 PM ]
Originally posted by cciowa:
Why does this idiot get and deserve 3 threads
Poor guy has no hair. Give him something.
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