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2019 Defensive Progress & Robert Saleh Hot-seat Tracker

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree that the defense needs to be looked at as a whole.

We were -3 in turnover ratio last year, -11 this year. Stud yesterday researched and noted that 37 points have been scored off TO's. Even ST's are contributing to that.

The last 8 games last year we played a string of pretty crappy QB's outside of Wilson. There's no question we've played better QB's this year.

Injuries seem on par to last year.

The last 8 games we gave up 20.5 PPG. So far this year, 29.8. And no doubt the TO's and competition has contributed to that significantly. Unfortunately, TO's = automatic TD's.

Obviously, with 1,200 pounds of beef up front and our clear strength, why would the opposition run the ball esp. when they can pass with ease esp. with zero pass rush to worry about? The run defense and pass defense stats reflects that.

However, those are the end results of the following concerns:

Slow starts, total lack of recognition of common concepts by the opposition (diamond formation), total personnel regression from last year despite another full off season and simplified scheme to boot, odd personnel choices and preferences, lack of development of young players, only 3 TO's again, last in sacks, poor situational awareness, continual poor communication issues, poor fundamentals (tackling/angles/form), inability to call TO's, players confused pre snap, inability to coach up players on situational awareness (Mabin vs. GB), inability to provide help to a DB getting abused, slow to make adjustments, zero changes to personnel (definition of insanity is...), scrape-exchange still can't be executed properly, trail concept fails, gap integrity blows still (1-legged Rodgers), blown coverages, constant bull rushing (vs. 1/2 man), rotating CB's, 3rd and longs, etc.

The bottom line is Saleh is a very green DC and HC/OC's are exposing him this year. He's trying to adjust by running varying coverages but his defense is wildly ill-prepared and late to adjust or can't adjust at all. And it's only going to get worse as the L's pile up and the morale drops.

Everyone knew coming in he was missing a true ER but he also seems to be fixated on run defenders and seemed fine with players like Armstead, Ward and Marsh as playing significant roles in this defense.

Now the latest shift is blaming talent. To me, both are accurate. 1. We're clearly missing some key personnel to make this scheme run more effectively and 2. Robert Saleh isn't a good DC today.

He and all of his assistants need to be critically evaluated this off season. Kyle is scheming up magic on the offensive side with crucial injuries across the board and different personnel in and out of the lineup. The defense needs to be held to the same standard.

People can talk about metrics and that's fine, but technique and understanding the why behind metrics is just as important. I can show you a set of numbers but they mean nothing until people infer their own conclusions which may not be correlated in the sets of stats shown. You can weave a great story from this but here's the catch, all football is situational. Just because statistically you're playing the #1 offense and you're ranked the #18 defense, does not at all mean you "shouldn't have a chance to win." Matchups on both sides of the ball matter. Also, rankings are snapshots in time and don't take into consideration player or unit development, scheme, etc. For example, a poor DC can have great talent and call a bad game but because he has better talent statistically can have a better D. Does this mean the total D, including scheme, is improving week over week or does it mean his players are good at covering bad scheme? Tracking total D week over week won't tell you this until he plays an O with enough offense and a play-caller who can expose bad scheme despite superior talent.

This is why I don't put too much faith into rankings and try to extrapolate conclusions if the visual evidence consistently says the opposite.

Judge a team not by the Vegas line, not by ESPN rankings, not by PFFs top power poll, but what the team can control. Start with the fundamental things in which they're responsible before heaping praise or finding blame in other areas.

Communication is a football fundamental. It's CLEAR communication is a problem. It's CLEAR communication is not improving because even after the 6th game of the season, players are STILL talking about miscommunicaiton post game as the reason why they weren't able to do fundamental things (right coverage, understand the scheme, prepared for what the other team is running). This is *not* a talent issue. If you're not even in the right spot because you don't understand what's going on week after week, that's fundamentally a coaching problem. I can't evaluate how effectively talent can be if they don't understand in the SECOND year of the same scheme in the 6th game what they're supposed to do. Yes an awesome pass-rush would overcome a lot of things, but the question should be - should it? Football 101 - know where you're supposed to be at what time.

Technique is also a problem, from tackling to getting heads around to intercept a pass. Again it's hard to talk about talent and lack thereof if at a fundamental level, what's being taught is clearly not being done properly. How do you know what kind of talent you need if guys aren't tackling and like with communication above, apparently we're not teaching our players how to tackle properly. We're also not teaching our CBs how to play the ball and could somewhat be the reason why our INT is last in the league. Our CBs always have their backs to the ball as it arrives - again that's not talent, that's being taught.

It's fine to defend based on negligible stats that may or may not mean what's intended, but again, I point you to the things that our team can control when it comes to practice and preparation; fundamentals.

I caution everyone with relying too much on "stats".

[tweet https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd2xVNYlamP/?utm_source=ig_embed]

Well said. If you can't establish even the fundamentals including assignments, you won't last in the NFL.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.
even though he or cj or all of the above are still finding ways to lose winnable games. funny to see people still trying to lamely defend the alleged dc
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.
even though he or cj or all of the above are still finding ways to lose winnable games. funny to see people still trying to lamely defend the alleged dc

Explicitly, because they don't know who to cover or where they're supposed to be on any given play.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 17, 2018 at 10:49 AM ]
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

You can scheme offense. But defense needs talent.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 52,322
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.
its his job to teach and motivate players. but of course i am talking to the guy who thought the o line last year was just fine
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.

Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 17, 2018 at 10:54 AM ]
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 52,322
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

You can scheme offense. But defense needs talent.
by talent do you mean thomas. ward aa marsh? pretty sure you like all those guys i am happy you have faith but i have no faith even if you upgraded the talent. this guy would know what to do with it

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

Producing turnovers and short fields for the opposition.
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Kyle's offense is atop the NFL for turnovers. Magic?

Yes, despite the TO's. Imagine what he could do if he didn't have to deal with poor TO's.

Imagine if Saleh didn't have to deal with a lack of TOs and an abundance of missed tackles.

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

Producing turnovers and short fields for the opposition.

Yes ever possession this is happening. Let's keep rolling with they hyperbole.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 52,322
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.

sorry but the philosophy . aside from you just do not take the job of marsh and aa.. is to keep trash.. obtain more trash. extend trash and then HOPE said trash somehow gets better
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.

Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.

If Saleh had to tell Shanahan the talent in the secondary sucks then Shanahan should be fired.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by cciowa:
did you see the game. it turned out bad.. and tell me please why we allowed the packer wide outs to work the sidelines late knowing they had no time outs left???? that is basic football and even espn people were saying.. i have no clue what the niners are doing. but of course we skip over that stuff

Because Greg Maybin sucks and has no idea what he is doing? Yep. That's Saleh's fault.

Stick to complaining about our Oline. You were on a roll.

Then I ask why is Greg out there? If Jimmy Ward is your starter and has a injury history longer than the closing docs on a property sale, then you should spend more time preparing Greg what to do if Jimmy should come out of a game. If he's not able to function at a basic level, it's the coach's job to talk to the HC and say, "hey we need to bring in some guys because Maybin can't function at all." Reminder - we did this last year.

Buuuuut that didn't happen. What happened was we stuck with Maybin and Saleh (again) just watched him fail.

Yup...finally rid ourselves on Donte Johnson. Focused on Witherspoon. Stayed with Mabin. Drafted Tarvarius Moore and D.J. Reed. Brought in Sherman. What other unit has been given more resources over the past two off seasons?

At some point, you need to teach these players and develop them.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 17, 2018 at 10:58 AM ]
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