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ECF: HEAT (3) VS. BULLS(1)

Originally posted by bayarealuv:

i think any non-biased fan in this board would have picked d-rose too

False. Not a fan of any team other than the Warriors.

My MVP ballot:
1) Dwight Howard
2) LeBron James
3) Dirk Nowitzki

Derrick Rose's MVP campaign was built on a great narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing else. Dont believe me? I'm not even going to ask you to show me a bunch of personal statistics that prove Rose should be the MVP. All I will ask you to do is show me ONE piece of statistical analysis that proves he should have won. I bet you that you wont be able to find one.
  • Amir
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Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Haha yea, I don't even understand why ppl care that a player is a douche?

Anyway, I agree that Lebron didn't have as good a game last night offensively - but when you play 44+ minutes out of 48 in a tie game - it's tough to be + for the game. Derrick Rose played fewer minutes than Lebron and was completely gassed by the end of regulation, and Lebron was giving 110% on the defensive end as well, whereas Rose is guarding Bibby or Chalmers mostly. That's been the most impressive thing about James. He is playin' ridiculous amounts of minutes, and is still great in the 4th quarter.

...and again, when it really mattered - Lebron delivered, on both ends of the floor, scoring wise and making the right passes, and then playing terrific defense on Rose down the stretch. Honestly, Rose has gotten maybe couple of easy baskets in each of the last 3 games and that's it. Miami's defense in playoffs is one of the best I've seen in recent times.

In the last 3 games, Bulls/Rose haven't figured out what to do. Does he need to be more aggressive? Does he need to pass the ball? They have tried both, and neither strategy resulted in a win, or found much success in the 4th quarter. Miami's D is the single biggest reason for the playoff success so far, and it starts with D-Wade and Lebron James.

This is the best I've seen Lebron play defense. He has been a pretty decent defender last few years, but he has been special this year...and that has def. hurt his efficiency on the other side a little bit - but I'll take that when your defense can restrict the other team around 90 pts consistently.

I disagree that he's been coming through down the stretch on both ends when it matters. Miami got exactly 2 points in the last 2 minutes of regulation, on a look that Bosh created on his own. This included an offensive foul with 8 seconds left, when LeBron had no business doing that with that much time left on the clock and it jeopardized the game. Neither he nor Miami has been very good in crunch time in this series on the offensive end, but the Bulls have been much worse. He's been great on the other side on the defensive end, as the entire team has been in 4th quarters and in the clutch. When the other team isn't scoring at all, eventually you're going to make some plays on the offensive end that win the game.

Miami's D IS the biggest single reason for their playoff success. I agree. The Bulls are averaging 15.7 points per 4th quarter in the last 3 games. LeBron has been phenomenal defensively, but so has Wade, Anthony, & Chalmers. Rose being God awful is the difference in this series, and (as you said) he's being mostly guarded by Bibby/Chalmers and whichever big is defending the pick and roll.

James in the 4th quarter this series:

Game 1: 3 of teams 19 points: loss
Game 2: 10 of the teams 14 points
Game 3: 10 of teams 28 points
Game 4: 7 of the 22 teams points and 6 of teams 16 points in OT

In the last three games, James has been the most consistent offensive player for the Heat in the 4th quarter. Championship caliber teams always have a different player here and there who comes through during the series (Haslem, Bosh, and Miller) but James has been the only consistent player in just about every game in the 4th quarter which is what teams with great players always have.

Of course he's gonna put individual numbers up when he has the ball in his hands as much as he does. Look at the team points in each of those 4th quarters. Aside from Game 3, when he was great, all low totals. No one else is gonna be all that productive in 4th quarters when he dominates the ball like that. Bosh has been consistent and effective when he's gotten the ball in this series...he's just not getting it much in the 4th quarter. As a big, he can't pass the ball to himself.

That can be said for any player though. It's not like he's taking high volume of shots. He is shooting well also. Ever since the end of the Boston series, it almost seems as though his primary focus is on defense until the 4th where he turns it on at both ends. There's a lot of other things he does that MIA would not win without. He is actually having a presence in the key on the defensive end.

He's averaging 7 rbs per game this series, 6.75 assists, 2.25 steals, 2 blocks, and 25.25 pts per game.

The bold is very impressive since the second leading blocker in the post season was Tim Duncan with 2.5 per game. In steals, the highest ranked player was Manu with 2.6. Lebron is having a great series considering how gritty these games have been at the defensive end.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Rose is a difficult type of player to build a team around. What do you do when your primary scorer is 6'2"? Do you get a PG and put him at SG or do you get a SG and put him at PG? But then if he's at PG, setting players up and feeding players at their spots is a little more complexed. If he's a SG, then he's a short one.
Both teams are looking awful on offense bc both defenses are playing superb.
I find it hard to believe that people are attacking Lebron when they are winning with him taking the leadership role. Granted it ain't pretty as far as a fluidity stand point on
The execution of plays. But to score on the stingy defense of the bulls has fallen to the last resort of "muscling" points and Lebron is the best at it. Chicago looked just plain ole worn out physically.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Rose is a difficult type of player to build a team around. What do you do when your primary scorer is 6'2"? Do you get a PG and put him at SG or do you get a SG and put him at PG? But then if he's at PG, setting players up and feeding players at their spots is a little more complexed. If he's a SG, then he's a short one.

I disagree. This team needs a legit SG. Rose is a willing passer, he just doesn't have any consistent offensive options. The makeup of this team is that of a defensive team with very little offensive players. Rose is the primary option because there's no other option. Deng is a game-to-game thing on whether he'll score or not. Even then, he tends to show up in the beginning and fall off towards the end. Joe Johnson woulda been the perfect signing for the Bulls last offseason, which apparently is who Rose wanted the most. Rose would love to defer to his teammates, problem is though, his teammates want him to take over.
Interesting fact about Rose, in his last high school game, Rose scored only 2 points or something like that and had a bunch of assists. He wanted to showcase his teammates because he already had committed to Memphis.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Rose is a difficult type of player to build a team around. What do you do when your primary scorer is 6'2"? Do you get a PG and put him at SG or do you get a SG and put him at PG? But then if he's at PG, setting players up and feeding players at their spots is a little more complexed. If he's a SG, then he's a short one.

I disagree. This team needs a legit SG. Rose is a willing passer, he just doesn't have any consistent offensive options. The makeup of this team is that of a defensive team with very little offensive players. Rose is the primary option because there's no other option. Deng is a game-to-game thing on whether he'll score or not. Even then, he tends to show up in the beginning and fall off towards the end. Joe Johnson woulda been the perfect signing for the Bulls last offseason, which apparently is who Rose wanted the most. Rose would love to defer to his teammates, problem is though, his teammates want him to take over.
Interesting fact about Rose, in his last high school game, Rose scored only 2 points or something like that and had a bunch of assists. He wanted to showcase his teammates because he already had committed to Memphis.

But he's a passer after forcing defense towards him. A PG needs to pass it to players when they seal their spot for a routine practiced jumpshot or post. His type of play needs players who are willing to move a lot without the basketball. It's always a difficult mix with a player like him at PG.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Haha yea, I don't even understand why ppl care that a player is a douche?

Anyway, I agree that Lebron didn't have as good a game last night offensively - but when you play 44+ minutes out of 48 in a tie game - it's tough to be + for the game. Derrick Rose played fewer minutes than Lebron and was completely gassed by the end of regulation, and Lebron was giving 110% on the defensive end as well, whereas Rose is guarding Bibby or Chalmers mostly. That's been the most impressive thing about James. He is playin' ridiculous amounts of minutes, and is still great in the 4th quarter.

...and again, when it really mattered - Lebron delivered, on both ends of the floor, scoring wise and making the right passes, and then playing terrific defense on Rose down the stretch. Honestly, Rose has gotten maybe couple of easy baskets in each of the last 3 games and that's it. Miami's defense in playoffs is one of the best I've seen in recent times.

In the last 3 games, Bulls/Rose haven't figured out what to do. Does he need to be more aggressive? Does he need to pass the ball? They have tried both, and neither strategy resulted in a win, or found much success in the 4th quarter. Miami's D is the single biggest reason for the playoff success so far, and it starts with D-Wade and Lebron James.

This is the best I've seen Lebron play defense. He has been a pretty decent defender last few years, but he has been special this year...and that has def. hurt his efficiency on the other side a little bit - but I'll take that when your defense can restrict the other team around 90 pts consistently.

I disagree that he's been coming through down the stretch on both ends when it matters. Miami got exactly 2 points in the last 2 minutes of regulation, on a look that Bosh created on his own. This included an offensive foul with 8 seconds left, when LeBron had no business doing that with that much time left on the clock and it jeopardized the game. Neither he nor Miami has been very good in crunch time in this series on the offensive end, but the Bulls have been much worse. He's been great on the other side on the defensive end, as the entire team has been in 4th quarters and in the clutch. When the other team isn't scoring at all, eventually you're going to make some plays on the offensive end that win the game.

Miami's D IS the biggest single reason for their playoff success. I agree. The Bulls are averaging 15.7 points per 4th quarter in the last 3 games. LeBron has been phenomenal defensively, but so has Wade, Anthony, & Chalmers. Rose being God awful is the difference in this series, and (as you said) he's being mostly guarded by Bibby/Chalmers and whichever big is defending the pick and roll.

James in the 4th quarter this series:

Game 1: 3 of teams 19 points: loss
Game 2: 10 of the teams 14 points
Game 3: 10 of teams 28 points
Game 4: 7 of the 22 teams points and 6 of teams 16 points in OT

In the last three games, James has been the most consistent offensive player for the Heat in the 4th quarter. Championship caliber teams always have a different player here and there who comes through during the series (Haslem, Bosh, and Miller) but James has been the only consistent player in just about every game in the 4th quarter which is what teams with great players always have.

Of course he's gonna put individual numbers up when he has the ball in his hands as much as he does. Look at the team points in each of those 4th quarters. Aside from Game 3, when he was great, all low totals. No one else is gonna be all that productive in 4th quarters when he dominates the ball like that. Bosh has been consistent and effective when he's gotten the ball in this series...he's just not getting it much in the 4th quarter. As a big, he can't pass the ball to himself.

That can be said for any player though. It's not like he's taking high volume of shots. He is shooting well also. Ever since the end of the Boston series, it almost seems as though his primary focus is on defense until the 4th where he turns it on at both ends. There's a lot of other things he does that MIA would not win without. He is actually having a presence in the key on the defensive end.

He's averaging 7 rbs per game this series, 6.75 assists, 2.25 steals, 2 blocks, and 25.25 pts per game.

The bold is very impressive since the second leading blocker in the post season was Tim Duncan with 2.5 per game. In steals, the highest ranked player was Manu with 2.6. Lebron is having a great series considering how gritty these games have been at the defensive end.

Exactly. And as you pointed out he is the best scorer in the 4th and overtime. He is the closer. Not to mention he can play 4 positions on the floor. 1,2,3 and 4. Both offensively and defensively. And he is tremendous at defense. He's having a huge effect on Rose. LA saying Rose is sucking has a lot to do with Lebron at the end of the game gurading him. He has the feet, speed and athleticism to guard him. And a 6'8" frame to use length to bother him. Lebron is absolutely phenomenal. Clearly the best player in the series when you look at both ends.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?