Scott Tolzien vs Josh Johnson for #3 QB position

Originally posted by kush:
You said he didnt make any throws from the pocket yet he did make a throw from the pocket. It was a similar play to what Tolzien was being asked to do. I think Tolzien played a great game I am merely pointing out how unfair ppl are being in their analysis.

And I would take a 6'5 mike Vick with drew Brees' work ethic and smarts any day of the week.

I think there has been a little bit of over-reaction to ST's play obviously. One result is to judge Kaep's play more harshly.

But I think it was clear in the last game that ST was really natural in the pocket and looked like a much more polished passer than Kaep at this point.

You mention Drew Brees. Well, the other thing that Drew Brees has is an ability to execute a passing game. Kaep might be really intelligent, but that doesn't mean he is going to internalize progressions, throwing into space, and being able to successfully run an NFL offense. It is too early to tell on Kaep, but ST can do it now. That much was clear from the game. Now will his (ST) arm and overall talent allow him to be an NFL starter? I think that is the question. Right now he has skills in the pocket that Kaep does not posses.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Bill, Joe Montana said last year that Jim's WCO was very similar to Walsh's. I agree that while Colin aside from that td run has looked like the third best option, there is still time to mold him into a passer, but it is going to take some effort by him to hang in the pocket. He has the deer in the headlights look when the rush is on, goes straight to flight mode too easily. Hopefully some practical experience will help. Right now he doesn't look like the guy I would want running the offense.

So agree with this... but people have to stop taking all of these comments and translating them into "Ck7 iz teh suxxorz and will neverz be good!"

Originally posted by dtcomposer:
I think there has been a little bit of over-reaction to ST's play obviously. One result is to judge Kaep's play more harshly.

But I think it was clear in the last game that ST was really natural in the pocket and looked like a much more polished passer than Kaep at this point.

and this, as well. SO FAR, I would easily want Tolzien coming in for Alex in a real game... BUT... let's all play wait-n-see. We are all for the most part just saying SO FAR...

Originally posted by RishikeshA:

The nature of the game on the collegiate level has changed. The spread option QB is the vogue because they can run with the ball. Passing becomes secondary and comes into play only when the running game is established or the team is way behind. It will take a few years to have CK grounded into being the classic drop back QB. Even then the position is instinctual at the highest level of pro football. If it has to be taught there's a good chance the QB does not have it. From what I've seen of Scott Tolzien he has the foundation of the pocket passer. If he's put on the taxi squad there's a good chance he'll be claimed by someone in a QB deprived league. A 28 year old rookie is starting QB for the Browns, that speaks volumes on the lack of QB talent. CK=Tebow

The last statement you made ruined the whole post. Tebow is garbage, Kaepernick is already better than him and will continue to improve. Tebow is simply not a passer, Kaepernick is.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Bill, Joe Montana said last year that Jim's WCO was very similar to Walsh's. I agree that while Colin aside from that td run has looked like the third best option, there is still time to mold him into a passer, but it is going to take some effort by him to hang in the pocket. He has the deer in the headlights look when the rush is on, goes straight to flight mode too easily. Hopefully some practical experience will help. Right now he doesn't look like the guy I would want running the offense.

So agree with this... but people have to stop taking all of these comments and translating them into "Ck7 iz teh suxxorz and will neverz be good!"

Originally posted by dtcomposer:
I think there has been a little bit of over-reaction to ST's play obviously. One result is to judge Kaep's play more harshly.

But I think it was clear in the last game that ST was really natural in the pocket and looked like a much more polished passer than Kaep at this point.

and this, as well. SO FAR, I would easily want Tolzien coming in for Alex in a real game... BUT... let's all play wait-n-see. We are all for the most part just saying SO FAR...

Agree with these posts for the most part but the 9ers are a championship caliber team and need a steady efficient QB behind Smith. So far, Tolzien has looked the part and it looks like CK is behind...but since Harbaugh just named CK the #2...never mind! JH will manage the QBs toward efficient play within their ability levels. I believe he is fine with CK establishing his running early on to scare defenses, lessen the pass rush a bit.

JH loosened up the offense last year and allowed Smith to run, which led to his TD against NO. In the past Smith was taught to stand back and be a pocket passer, even when there was no pocket.

Having four QBs I really like is such a change and long overdue!

Is Kap a classic pocket passer? Or wildcat man? Neither. But we have only a round hole and a square hole for the odd shaped Kaepernick peg, apparently not fitting we need to throw him under the bus?

He is very unique. Wildcatter's reach their top speed after about 3 strides. Quick beats fast. Kaepernick needs about 30 yards to get his top speed. And I can't think of a wildcatter with a cannon arm.

But, what a controversial player. This isn't even his thread.

I'm a huge Kap fan but, came on here to rave about Tolzien. How did this kid not get drafted? The thing that stood out to me what how "poised" he was in the pocket. I never saw Smith looked this poised in his first few years.

Can he keep this up? I was surprised he seemingly picked up where he left off in San Diego. His level of play shouldn't only just concern Kap, it should concern Smith.

And if Johnson has the monster game this week and shines over ST and CK, how many here will do a 180?



But then I have this little nagging thought "Only fool draws so much, from so little".

Originally posted by Kolohe:
You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.

But if our only interest is pocket passing, why did coaches draft an non-prototype-pocket-passer?

And I guess it is just a coincidence that 2 of our 4 QBs are very mobile but, all we care about it pocket presence?

Or maybe, the mad genius Roman is finding more ways to confound defenses by stock piling a myriad of different weapons and one will just have to see how they are utilized.

It's nice to talk about how guys are doing well in camp and preseason games without having a disclaimer that it's still very early for everyone involved trying to make it on the team or becoming starters. It goes without saying...

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

It's nice to talk about how guys are doing well in camp and preseason games without having a disclaimer that it's still very early for everyone involved trying to make it on the team or becoming starters. It goes without saying...

It did until you said it!

Has a non-traditional pocket passer ever won a superbowl? It may be todays flavor with Cam Newton and Michael Vick, but it cant be sustainable.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Has a non-traditional pocket passer ever won a superbowl? It may be todays flavor with Cam Newton and Michael Vick, but it cant be sustainable.

cam newton can pass in the pocket

vick is ok in the pocket (except for that 1 season) but he is still better at kaep in that aspect

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
It's nice to talk about how guys are doing well in camp and preseason games without having a disclaimer that it's still very early for everyone involved trying to make it on the team or becoming starters. It goes without saying...

It did until you said it!

My attempt at not so subtle reminder

I dont even think its fair to call him "non-traditional" Yes, he has the ability to run, and its a high level of ability. He can also throw. If you go read the analysis of the throws made each day in camp, its clear that kaep is making good plays in the passing game. What he is currrently offering is the ability to make plays that no one else on the team can make. Based on this, he has earned the position to continue to be pushed hard as the #2, to work on the things that will make him even better.

The other guy also probably earned some chances to show what he can do against better players, but the same daily throw analysis has him throwing multiple picks per day in practice. So the fact that he goes 10-13 against CFL players has to be taken with a grain of salt. I will say, he is probably performing better than any 3rd string qb ive ever seen.

Originally posted by Lunchwagon:
I dont even think its fair to call him "non-traditional" Yes, he has the ability to run, and its a high level of ability. He can also throw. If you go read the analysis of the throws made each day in camp, its clear that kaep is making good plays in the passing game. What he is currrently offering is the ability to make plays that no one else on the team can make. Based on this, he has earned the position to continue to be pushed hard as the #2, to work on the things that will make him even better.

The other guy also probably earned some chances to show what he can do against better players, but the same daily throw analysis has him throwing multiple picks per day in practice. So the fact that he goes 10-13 against CFL players has to be taken with a grain of salt. I will say, he is probably performing better than any 3rd string qb ive ever seen.

LOL. Yeah, i know its practice. I'm not saying he should be the starter. Against the Vikes though, Kaep made two plays that NO ONE else on the team was gonna make: The long run, and the wicked out he threw to aj jenkins. It may not seem all that great, but that pass was very difficult and it was perfect...and against better D, than what Tolzien saw.

The biggest learning curve for a young guy like Kaep, that isn't familiar with the drop back pocket, is the ability to quickly find the secondary target when the first one is taken away. Is his read quick enough to go to a 2nd one... usually it's not, when you are 1-2 years in. Instantly recognized the first, then go to the 2nd. They tend to start running when that first look isn't there. Hesitant and generally unsure. Sometimes they end up desperate and throw it up where they shouldn't, trying to make a play with their big gun arm. They are trying to develop Kaep into this end. But once he gets it, the dude will be deadly. You get a quick recognition, big arm to get it out to the other offensive weapons, deadly mobile qb -- that's a helluva weapon.

This goes for Tolzien also but he seems to be a little further along dropping back in the pocket, but can't be sure that he knows enough.