I have to see more.
Tough call so far seeing that Johnson has ties with Harbros. back in the days.
Tolzein looks good man. I am a fan.
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Scott Tolzien vs Josh Johnson for #3 QB position
Aug 15, 2012 at 12:25 AM
- TonyStarks
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Aug 15, 2012 at 12:46 AM
- Youngb
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People have been quick to jump on the Tolzien bandwagon and throw Kaep to the wayside. Kaep has only thrown 61 attempts in his whole career, counting preseason, and Tolzien has 53. Neither have had the playing time for us to determine who is better since we're not in camp. There is a reason Harbaugh and co. moved up to snag up Kaep in the 2nd round last year. I'm not saying Tolzien is bad by any means, I think he's performed extremely well, but I do think that Kaep has many more tools and if utilized correctly he can be a very very dangerous QB.
Harbaugh has already shown that he likes a balanced offense that can attack from numerous different angles and Kaep fits that perfectly.
Got off track from thread title, but I'd rather have Tolzien over JJ from what I've seen so far. I really want to see him play in the 2nd quarter of a game and not against the 3rd stringers/camp bodies. Same with all 3 of our backups.
Harbaugh has already shown that he likes a balanced offense that can attack from numerous different angles and Kaep fits that perfectly.
Got off track from thread title, but I'd rather have Tolzien over JJ from what I've seen so far. I really want to see him play in the 2nd quarter of a game and not against the 3rd stringers/camp bodies. Same with all 3 of our backups.
Aug 15, 2012 at 12:48 AM
- Kolohe
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Originally posted by kush:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
WTF!!! What I mean by one-trick pony is someone who rather take off and run instead of making his reads, going through his progressions, spreading the ball around. Short accurate passes is the bread and butter of the WCO, Montana utilized the short yard pass to get into a rhythm, slowly picking a defense apart. Walsh use to set up the run with a pass and some times vice versa. LOL what was Kaeps passing numbers 5 for 9 40 yards, only time Kaep shined was when they were running a simple zone read option or rolling out. The guy is more of a project than Smith was coming outta college.
Not at all true abt Kaep only shining while running. He made a perfect short pass from the pocket to AJJ and it came out on time. He did exactly what was asked of him on each given play call. The almost pick intended for AJJ was late and he could've hit reuland over the middle on the play he was sacked but other than that he was on-point.
Wow so you knock Tolzien for making short passes but praise Kaepernick on his one short pass to AJ.
Then go on to praise Kaepernick cause he did what was asked, and yet knock Tolzien cause he did what was asked.
You know what I change my mind your right and I'm the one that has failed to see the beauty of the great Colin Kaepernick.
Seriously, its like you guys forgot what a good QB looks like nowa days.
Let me ask you this, would you take Mike Vick (when he was with Atlanta) or Drew Brees/Tom brady??
Aug 15, 2012 at 12:54 AM
- Kolohe
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You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.
Aug 15, 2012 at 12:57 AM
- Sunshine
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Originally posted by Kolohe:Wow so you knock Tolzien for making short passes but praise Kaepernick on his one short pass to AJ.
Then go on to praise Kaepernick cause he did what was asked, and yet knock Tolzien cause he did what was asked.
You know what I change my mind your right and I'm the one that has failed to see the beauty of the great Colin Kaepernick.
Seriously, its like you guys forgot what a good QB looks like nowa days.
Let me ask you this, would you take Mike Vick (when he was with Atlanta) or Drew Brees/Tom brady??
You said he didnt make any throws from the pocket yet he did make a throw from the pocket. It was a similar play to what Tolzien was being asked to do. I think Tolzien played a great game I am merely pointing out how unfair ppl are being in their analysis.
And I would take a 6'5 mike Vick with drew Brees' work ethic and smarts any day of the week.
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:03 AM
- Sunshine
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Originally posted by Kolohe:You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.
Athleticism is just one part of it. Arm strength, accuracy, ability to perform when SHTF, work ethic all play into it as well and Kaep aces all those tests.
Plus, Name 5 guys with Kaeps all-around ability and character who entered the league in the last ten years. Hell, name 2. I can't think of one To be honest.
And hey no college coaches have ever succeeded in the NFL, when will ppl learn??? Athletic QBs can't win games, EVER, forget that Steve young character!
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:03 AM
- Kolohe
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Originally posted by kush:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Wow so you knock Tolzien for making short passes but praise Kaepernick on his one short pass to AJ.
Then go on to praise Kaepernick cause he did what was asked, and yet knock Tolzien cause he did what was asked.
You know what I change my mind your right and I'm the one that has failed to see the beauty of the great Colin Kaepernick.
Seriously, its like you guys forgot what a good QB looks like nowa days.
Let me ask you this, would you take Mike Vick (when he was with Atlanta) or Drew Brees/Tom brady??
You said he didnt make any throws from the pocket yet he did make a throw from the pocket. It was a similar play to what Tolzien was being asked to do. I think Tolzien played a great game I am merely pointing out how unfair ppl are being in their analysis.
And I would take a 6'5 mike Vick with drew Brees' work ethic and smarts any day of the week.
Oh my bad he did make ONE throw from the pocket, but it seems like any time hes asked to take more than a three-step drop he gets happy feet and flushed outta the pocket so quickly.
BTW Vicks mechanics coming outta college were far better than Kaepernicks. Kaepernick has a long long ways to go before hes on Vicks level of play.
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:09 AM
- Sunshine
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Originally posted by Kolohe:Oh my bad he did make ONE throw from the pocket, but it seems like any time hes asked to take more than a three-step drop he gets happy feet and flushed outta the pocket so quickly.
BTW Vicks mechanics coming outta college were far better than Kaepernicks. Kaepernick has a long long ways to go before hes on Vicks level of play.
Lol he had maybe three plays called in The pocket: one was the pass to Jenkins, one was his sack (with pressure at 2 seconds or less) and the third was anothe play he was pressured in under 2 seconds on a 3rd and 6 and he ran for the 1st. What the f**k do you expect out of him, my GOD.
And Vick was rough around the edges and was very raw in reading defenses, he still is. He never had Kaeps character or work ethic. PLEASE
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:20 AM
- Kolohe
- Hall of Fame
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Originally posted by kush:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.
Athleticism is just one part of it. Arm strength, accuracy, ability to perform when SHTF, work ethic all play into it as well and Kaep aces all those tests.
Plus, Name 5 guys with Kaeps all-around ability and character who entered the league in the last ten years. Hell, name 2. I can't think of one To be honest.
And hey no college coaches have ever succeeded in the NFL, when will ppl learn??? Athletic QBs can't win games, EVER, forget that Steve young character!
You forget two major intangibles, timing and touch, which Kaepernick really lacks, not to mention his footwork is horrible which is a definite must in the WCO. Footwork coordinates with the receivers routes. I remember when we drafted Gio Carmazzi, the media use to tease him cause he looked like a robot out there trying to run the WCO, robot in reference to his mechanics meaning he looked pretty stiff, same as how Kaepernick looks.
Second question: Mike Vick, Vince Young, Dennis Dixon, Joe Webb, Seneca Wallace, Tim Tebow, Pat White, Tavaris Jackson, Donovan McNabb, Eric Crouch. Now how many of the won Super Bowls??
I can name you 10 pocket passers that did.
Yah you mention Steve Young, well Walsh molded him into a passer first, runner second, don't ever forget that!!!!
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:25 AM
- Kolohe
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 59,829
Originally posted by kush:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Oh my bad he did make ONE throw from the pocket, but it seems like any time hes asked to take more than a three-step drop he gets happy feet and flushed outta the pocket so quickly.
BTW Vicks mechanics coming outta college were far better than Kaepernicks. Kaepernick has a long long ways to go before hes on Vicks level of play.
Lol he had maybe three plays called in The pocket: one was the pass to Jenkins, one was his sack (with pressure at 2 seconds or less) and the third was anothe play he was pressured in under 2 seconds on a 3rd and 6 and he ran for the 1st. What the f**k do you expect out of him, my GOD.
And Vick was rough around the edges and was very raw in reading defenses, he still is. He never had Kaeps character or work ethic. PLEASE
What do I expect?? Well how about reading a defense for one, did you see how Tolzien made pre-snap adjustments and stood in the pocket and delivered a pass to Nathan Palmer?? You also forget Tolzien came into the league the SAME TIME Kaepernick did.
To say Vick never had Kaepernicks work ethic is absurd, he may have not had Kaepernicks attitude, but work ethic now I feel your just talking to talk.
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM
- Kolohe
- Hall of Fame
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Well good night Kush, its getting pretty late here in Oahu, nice chatting with you.
Aug 15, 2012 at 1:28 AM
- Sunshine
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- Posts: 3,508
Originally posted by Kolohe:You forget two major intangibles, timing and touch, which Kaepernick really lacks, not to mention his footwork is horrible which is a definite must in the WCO. Footwork coordinates with the receivers routes. I remember when we drafted Gio Carmazzi, the media use to tease him cause he looked like a robot out there trying to run the WCO, robot in reference to his mechanics meaning he looked pretty stiff, same as how Kaepernick looks.
Second question: Mike Vick, Vince Young, Dennis Dixon, Joe Webb, Seneca Wallace, Tim Tebow, Pat White, Tavaris Jackson, Donovan McNabb, Eric Crouch. Now how many of the won Super Bowls??
I can name you 10 pocket passers that did.
Yah you mention Steve Young, well Walsh molded him into a passer first, runner second, don't ever forget that!!!!
Lol Kaep has no timing and touch based off what? Training camp reports from Matt Maiocco? LMaO.
What a pathetic list of guys to compare Kaep to, I'm done talking to you about this lol, your Mind is made up. It would be a waste of time going through and telling you specifically how Kaep differs from each of those guys but hey, they're all fast so the comparisons spot on!
I can't wait to quote this in the future when Kaep is kickin ass and taking names. Night kolohe!
[ Edited by kush on Aug 15, 2012 at 1:31 AM ]
Aug 15, 2012 at 3:28 AM
- WildBill
- Veteran
- Posts: 6,100
Originally posted by Kolohe:
You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.
Conventional wisdom is yes you are right, but does not mean it can't be done, you have to train and reel them in, however that can be said of a majority of QBs. How many conventional pocket QB's have failed. How many have QBs failed maybe because of coaching. Steve Young and Brett Farve come to mind. How about Warren Moon? Andrew Luck has his athleticism overlooked. If they train them right RGIII and Cam, will succeed also. You need to look at the boss running the show. It ain't Walsh and JH likes his QB's athletic. I also laugh when WCO is used to describe JH's offense.
[ Edited by WildBill on Aug 15, 2012 at 3:41 AM ]
Aug 15, 2012 at 3:32 AM
- WildBill
- Veteran
- Posts: 6,100
Originally posted by Kolohe:
You forget two major intangibles, timing and touch, which Kaepernick really lacks, not to mention his footwork is horrible which is a definite must in the WCO. Footwork coordinates with the receivers routes. I remember when we drafted Gio Carmazzi, the media use to tease him cause he looked like a robot out there trying to run the WCO, robot in reference to his mechanics meaning he looked pretty stiff, same as how Kaepernick looks.
Second question: Mike Vick, Vince Young, Dennis Dixon, Joe Webb, Seneca Wallace, Tim Tebow, Pat White, Tavaris Jackson, Donovan McNabb, Eric Crouch. Now how many of the won Super Bowls??
I can name you 10 pocket passers that did.
Yah you mention Steve Young, well Walsh molded him into a passer first, runner second, don't ever forget that!!!!
Actually, Steve was a runner first that got molded into a passer, point is, it can be done with a competent staff of coaches, unless you believe JH and company are not competent?
Aug 15, 2012 at 3:40 AM
- Memphis9er
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Originally posted by WildBill:Originally posted by Kolohe:You see that's the thing, people put too much stock in athleticism in a QB. Tell me how much good to great QB's had that superior athleticism?? To be a starter successful starter in the NFL at the QB position, it starts from the pocket, everything else will follow, not the other way around. Been on the Webzone almost 10 years now, and its always the same argument.
Conventional wisdom is yes you are right, but does not mean it can't be done, you have to train and real them in. Steve Young and Brett Farve come to mind. Andrew Luck has his athleticism overlooked. If they train them right RIII and Cam, will succeed also. You need to look at the boss running the show. It ain't Walsh and JH likes his QB's athletic. I also laugh when WCO is used to describe JH's offense.
Bill, Joe Montana said last year that Jim's WCO was very similar to Walsh's. I agree that while Colin aside from that td run has looked like the third best option, there is still time to mold him into a passer, but it is going to take some effort by him to hang in the pocket. He has the deer in the headlights look when the rush is on, goes straight to flight mode too easily. Hopefully some practical experience will help. Right now he doesn't look like the guy I would want running the offense.