Scott Tolzien vs Josh Johnson for #3 QB position

maybe the niners will one up the jets with a regular qb, a wildcat qb, a backup to that wildcat qb, and a regular backup

It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

well, now we know those scouts were wrong.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

Good posts!

The thing is on tape, going back to ST at the San Diego Chargers (what were his stats?), he appears to have some things going for him that would be best for the team:
1. He's a gamer. Every game we've seen him play in, he's excelled no matter what type of quality (or lack there of) was around him (on his own team of the defenses he was facing). And he appears to be NFL-ready showing great command of the offense already making all the required throws. He could "manage" the offense today and appears to have upside if allowed time to grow. He can zip the pass in there in between three defenders in the middle of the field; no question of arm strength. I would like to see some deep balls though but they were great in San Diego against us if I remember correctly.
2. He is a QB who if Alex went down today, we would not need to change the offense one bit. If Kaep came in, the entire game plan would change for Roman, the OL (how they block) and the timing of the route running for the WR's. This is HUGE esp. for DC's who'd have to face us! It would be easy to stick 8-10 in the box and run blitz (even Kaep) and challenge him to throw all day with poise.
3. His pocket presence seems tremendous and don't downgrade his athleticism to escape, ala Alex and run for first downs when the 3rd, 4th read wasn't available and the pocket was breaking down.
4. He seems to have all the intangibles even getting veterans such as Donte Whitner to buy in.
5. It sounds like Baalke liked him a lot from the beginning so he and a 2nd round pick may be a "wash" and may the best man win!

Originally posted by NCommand:
Good posts!

The thing is on tape, going back to ST at the San Diego Chargers (what were his stats?), he appears to have some things going for him that would be best for the team:
1. He's a gamer. Every game we've seen him play in, he's excelled no matter what type of quality (or lack there of) was around him (on his own team of the defenses he was facing). And he appears to be NFL-ready showing great command of the offense already making all the required throws. He could "manage" the offense today and appears to have upside if allowed time to grow. He can zip the pass in there in between three defenders in the middle of the field; no question of arm strength. I would like to see some deep balls though but they were great in San Diego against us if I remember correctly.
2. He is a QB who if Alex went down today, we would not need to change the offense one bit. If Kaep came in, the entire game plan would change for Roman, the OL (how they block) and the timing of the route running for the WR's. This is HUGE esp. for DC's who'd have to face us! It would be easy to stick 8-10 in the box and run blitz (even Kaep) and challenge him to throw all day with poise.
3. His pocket presence seems tremendous and don't downgrade his athleticism to escape, ala Alex and run for first downs when the 3rd, 4th read wasn't available and the pocket was breaking down.
4. He seems to have all the intangibles even getting veterans such as Donte Whitner to buy in.
5. It sounds like Baalke liked him a lot from the beginning so he and a 2nd round pick may be a "wash" and may the best man win!

Oh yea, dont get me wrong. I love me some Tolzien. Have been pretty high on him since we picked him up. I was just pointing out that arm strength wasnt the only reason he went undrafted. everything measurable about his arms was fine, Hand size etc. and as stated, arm strength can be improved, up to a point. The major concern IMO was him being able to be a pocket passer behind an NFL sized Oline and still be able to consistently find throwing lanes.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

I believe Tolzein measured at 6'2". Same as Dalton and Ponder.
...Same as Aaron Rodgers as well if I'm remembering right, height was a knock on him coming out also.

Not the prototypical height 6'4"-6'5" many look for, but not really too bad.

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

I believe Tolzein measured at 6'2". Same as Dalton and Ponder.
...Same as Aaron Rodgers as well if I'm remembering right, height was a knock on him coming out also.

Not the prototypical height 6'4"-6'5" many look for, but not really too bad.

Russell Wilson was a hair under 5'11" at the combine and he was drafted in the 3rd round. Just sayin'

This thread is racist. It should clearly be Johnson

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

I believe Tolzein measured at 6'2". Same as Dalton and Ponder.
...Same as Aaron Rodgers as well if I'm remembering right, height was a knock on him coming out also.

Not the prototypical height 6'4"-6'5" many look for, but not really too bad.

Russell Wilson was a hair under 5'11" at the combine and he was drafted in the 3rd round. Just sayin'

Yes, but that FO has McDrunky...

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by OKC49erFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
It seems to me that our FO does a pretty good job of playing the talent evaluation game and anticipating where a prospect will get drafted. The only major knock on Tolzien coming out was a weak arm (like Brady), and that is generally enough to knock a guy way down in the draft. JJ's stock was deflated by the small-school competition he faced. CK's raw skills and production made him a higher pick, but the pistol offence he ran and 2nd teir competition (not to mention goofy throwing motion) kept him out of the first round. They went and got CK at the top of the 2nd because they wanted him, and that was the time to get him. They didn't draft Tolzien because they guessed (correctly) that e would not be drafted. They guessed (incorrectly) that they could persuade him to sign w/SF.

History has shown that QBs can dramatically increase arm strength through better mechanics and exercises that specifically strengthen the throwing motion. It is often reported that there are not enough effective QB coaches in the NFL, so it seems obvious that many college players are not receiving adequate instruction on mechanics and weight transfer. Tolzien is throwing with better velocity than he did in college, and his intermediate pass to Palmer arrived in a hurry. It seems clear that he has improved his arm strength (like Brady and Rodgers both did once they became pros). If Tolzien was coming out w/his current velociity on the ball, I highly doubt he would be undrafted.

As to the OP's topic, JJ looks skittish on the field, in TB and SF. Do not want. Tolzien appears to operate at the speed of the game. Advantage: Tolzien

Like i mentioned another post. Arm strength wasnt the biggest Knock on Tolzien. If it was simply his arm strength someone would have spent a late round flier on him. Yes arm strength can and will make a QB fall, but i dont think that was the biggest knock on Tolzien.

Yes the arm strength was an issue, But the real concern was that he wouldnt be able so stay in the pocket and find throwing lanes with NFL sized olinemen in front of him. He is listed at 6'3" and im sure they measured him at the combine, but we all know those #'s can be deceiveing. He looks more like 6'1" or 6,2" on the feild, if even that tall. In college he sometimes had problems finding a throwing lane and would, because of this, use a kooky throwing motion, or funky body mechanics to get the ball through the lane he needed to get it through. Scouts simply didnt think he could stand in an NFL pocket and consistently be able to deliver the football.

I believe Tolzein measured at 6'2". Same as Dalton and Ponder.
...Same as Aaron Rodgers as well if I'm remembering right, height was a knock on him coming out also.

Not the prototypical height 6'4"-6'5" many look for, but not really too bad.

Russell Wilson was a hair under 5'11" at the combine and he was drafted in the 3rd round. Just sayin'

Yes, but that FO has McDrunky...

I think he just orders drinks during the draft. Trust a drunk at the bar, trust the fat chick at Dairy Queen.

I keep hearing that we would have to change the offense for Kap if he came in the game...are these guys running different offenses in practice or something? Ive seen alex run a zone read option play or two, so just because kap is more of a running threat doesnt mean the offense will be changes or dumbed down for him, if anything it opens the playbook and makes us an even more dangerous running team as we've seen i the past from teams with legitimate dual threat qbs.

Originally posted by qwestlove94:
I keep hearing that we would have to change the offense for Kap if he came in the game...are these guys running different offenses in practice or something? Ive seen alex run a zone read option play or two, so just because kap is more of a running threat doesnt mean the offense will be changes or dumbed down for him, if anything it opens the playbook and makes us an even more dangerous running team as we've seen i the past from teams with legitimate dual threat qbs.

no way we can call as many pocket passing plays when kaep is in the game we would have to incorpiate more read options and roll outs for him

your last sentence basically describes what broncos did last year with tebow

Tolzien measured in at exactly 6' 2"... same as Steve Young... same as Aaron Rodgers. Height was and is not a significant issue. Tolzien's only issues that I ever read about were unspectacular arm strength and physical quickness.

I also don't believe we would have to dramatically alter the playbook for Ck7.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Bill, Joe Montana said last year that Jim's WCO was very similar to Walsh's. I agree that while Colin aside from that td run has looked like the third best option, there is still time to mold him into a passer, but it is going to take some effort by him to hang in the pocket. He has the deer in the headlights look when the rush is on, goes straight to flight mode too easily. Hopefully some practical experience will help. Right now he doesn't look like the guy I would want running the offense.

I have all the respect for Joe and love what he did for the niners in breaking the cowboy curse, but Joe hasn't seen the playbook. If you go by the play calling and formations of the two (Walsh and Harbaugh/Roman), they are vastly different. I lived through the Walsh days. By the time Shannahan, took over, although it was WCO, it was vastly different, still pass, but not as short. As Kolohe and others have said, Walsh set up the run with the pass. The only reason the niners would run was at the end, Walsh wanted to control the clock and run it out if we were leading. Don't get me wrong, if Walsh saw blood and it came in the form of the run, he would run until you stopped it. JH is run to set up the pass, but doesn't mean he won't pass if that is necessary, even the running style is different, back then it was technical and finesse, now it is maul the guys behind into the ground.