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Ray McDonald wants to be a starter, why the hell shouldn't he be?

Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Nothing wrong with that attitude, but the real concern is how he will hold up at DE in a 3-4 on running downs. that's why he seemed to play more on passing downs. I just think he's in the wrong scheme. But the coaching staff isn't gonna have time to decide if he's starting with this shortened off season. Him Soap, and Smith doesn't make for a good run stopping 3-4 d line imo. Can't be mad at a guy b/c he just wants to play. I'd like to keep him.

I'd have a problem if that wasn't his attitude. A player should always be hungry for the next tier. The knocks on him is against the run and his health. a 3-4 DE isn't a primary pass rusher...he's a space eater. he opens things up for the LBs. I wonder if Ray wouldn't do better on a 4-3 team. That said, I hope we keep him.

The bolded isn't always the case. It depends on the scheme as to how each DL is utilized. All roles are not the same on each 3-4 scheme. Unless Ray is much stronger on initial contact than he was, we would be left with all three of our DL as 1-gappers. Maybe that can work in today's NFL. Last year, we had Justin and Aubrayo doing more 1-gapping while Sop was more of our space-eating plugger. I am not sure if things would work well if all 3 DL are 1-gapping. Maybe Sopo would then be more of the plugger inside while both DEs 1-gap.

Exactly. It just concerns me that with this shortened off season how much time will the coaching staff get to truly evaluate the players and figure how to use them properly.

It's ok. Coaches have plenty of tape to figure players out. They knew for a while they didn't want Troy Smith back. lol.
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
I mean...if we dont resign Franklin and Soap moves inside...then yea...but i wouldnt start him at end over Soap if we have a good NT.

Hes a good situational pass rusher for a 3-4 end.

I think, for the limited times he is in there, he makes more plays than Soap and I'd rather have him on the field. I've never been impressed from Soap in any play. Ray gets out there and gets off the ball faster than Smith most of the time. Soap would be a nice back-up but IMO he isnt that good.
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Sjceruti:
I mean...if we dont resign Franklin and Soap moves inside...then yea...but i wouldnt start him at end over Soap if we have a good NT.

Hes a good situational pass rusher for a 3-4 end.

I think, for the limited times he is in there, he makes more plays than Soap and I'd rather have him on the field. I've never been impressed from Soap in any play. Ray gets out there and gets off the ball faster than Smith most of the time. Soap would be a nice back-up but IMO he isnt that good.

Two totally different requirements. Sopoaga was asked to take on and hold two blockers for Lawson/Willis to make plays were McDonald came in off the bench to "pass rush." That doesn't mean if McDonald was an every down starter at LDE he would automatically be as good as Sopoaga at this role...it also doesn't mean that Sopoaga can't be asked and even effectively used to push up field more and "attack" and collapse the pocket if given that responsibility.
I like McDonald. Every time he's on the field, he explodes off the snap, and is good at getting pressure.

But I have to ask two things:

1.) Is it possible that he has so much explosion because he's well-rested?

2.) Sure, he makes plays, but does he do the little things that fit in the confines of the scheme? An analogy I'll make is that, sure, a cornerback can get a lot of picks by aggressively jumping passes, but he'll also give up a lot of big plays if he's overaggressive. Does Ray McDonald play disciplined?
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I like McDonald. Every time he's on the field, he explodes off the snap, and is good at getting pressure.

But I have to ask two things:

1.) Is it possible that he has so much explosion because he's well-rested?

2.) Sure, he makes plays, but does he do the little things that fit in the confines of the scheme? An analogy I'll make is that, sure, a cornerback can get a lot of picks by aggressively jumping passes, but he'll also give up a lot of big plays if he's overaggressive. Does Ray McDonald play disciplined?

I mean, Jamie Winborn looked like such a force when he was on the team a long time ago. But he didn't play with the scheme, and that's why he was cut.
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I like McDonald. Every time he's on the field, he explodes off the snap, and is good at getting pressure.

But I have to ask two things:

1.) Is it possible that he has so much explosion because he's well-rested?

2.) Sure, he makes plays, but does he do the little things that fit in the confines of the scheme? An analogy I'll make is that, sure, a cornerback can get a lot of picks by aggressively jumping passes, but he'll also give up a lot of big plays if he's overaggressive. Does Ray McDonald play disciplined?

You ask some fair but tough questions. For the first, I'd say it definitely gives him an extra "uumph" to play as he has (limited snaps). It also gives him more "uumph" to try and prove that he should be given more snaps overall. For the 2nd, it is a mixed bag with Ray. Sometimes, he plays smart football. Sometimes, given an unexpected play direction called, he can take himself out of plays or out of good positioning so that a blocker can uproot him. That frankly goes for Justin too, though his instincts are clearly stronger.


An interesting thing to think about for the Ray fans (and yes, I am one of them)... Ray has racked up exactly 5 sacks in 4 years... and zero last year. Does that mean he sucks or doesn't get pressure? No, of course not. But it's an interesting consideration for those who are especially hard on Manny's sack-count.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I like McDonald. Every time he's on the field, he explodes off the snap, and is good at getting pressure.

But I have to ask two things:

1.) Is it possible that he has so much explosion because he's well-rested?

2.) Sure, he makes plays, but does he do the little things that fit in the confines of the scheme? An analogy I'll make is that, sure, a cornerback can get a lot of picks by aggressively jumping passes, but he'll also give up a lot of big plays if he's overaggressive. Does Ray McDonald play disciplined?

You ask some fair but tough questions. For the first, I'd say it definitely gives him an extra "uumph" to play as he has (limited snaps). It also gives him more "uumph" to try and prove that he should be given more snaps overall. For the 2nd, it is a mixed bag with Ray. Sometimes, he plays smart football. Sometimes, given an unexpected play direction called, he can take himself out of plays or out of good positioning so that a blocker can uproot him. That frankly goes for Justin too, though his instincts are clearly stronger.


An interesting thing to think about for the Ray fans (and yes, I am one of them)... Ray has racked up exactly 5 sacks in 4 years... and zero last year. Does that mean he sucks or doesn't get pressure? No, of course not. But it's an interesting consideration for those who are especially hard on Manny's sack-count.

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.

I dont needs their stats to know that Lawson gets pressure. Every game I watch he's getting pressure, he just doesn't have that final step or there is not enough pressure coming from the other side.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.

I dont needs their stats to know that Lawson gets pressure. Every game I watch he's getting pressure, he just doesn't have that final step or there is not enough pressure coming from the other side.

No, I agree... no stats needed to see what Manny can do. No stats needed to see that QBs are able to get the ball off quickly and negate our pressure. Let's hope the sissy soft DB coverages of old have gone the way of Manusky.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.

I dont needs their stats to know that Lawson gets pressure. Every game I watch he's getting pressure, he just doesn't have that final step or there is not enough pressure coming from the other side.

No, I agree... no stats needed to see what Manny can do. No stats needed to see that QBs are able to get the ball off quickly and negate our pressure. Let's hope the sissy soft DB coverages of old have gone the way of Manusky.

Can we also pray that the slow and overly obvious safety blitz right up the middle is over. And we can see some creativity in the packages.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.

No worries! Yeah, that was a heavily debated and refuted stat b/c he only had 1/2 the pass rush attempts as the FT starting OLB's in this league so it was heavily skewed and we all know the reason why he wasn't rushing on third downs was b/c he lost that responsibility to Brooks/LaBoy.

But hey, let's all continue to be objective here. I'd be the happiest if I was wrong, Lawson decides to stay and sign, and Fangio can get the absolute best out of him and he becomes the pass rushing playmaker we absolutely NEED opposite Aldon Smith which just has a positive ripple effect for the other 9 guys.

Go Niners...
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Love your first point, your second is Manny-plug. A simple way to compare the two, albeit, comparing apples to oranges here, is to divide the number of pass rush attempts by sacks/QB pressures for both and see who has rates higher for their careers. You used to be able to do that here but I believe you have to be a member now

I remember that PFF stated Manny Lawson had a ridiculously high pressure rating compared to times rushing. Not sure how much I trust them, but I do know that there is at least some truth to the point they were making.

At any rate, and following your discussion with Memphis about Manny... you do make me at least question how valuable he could be in Fangio's scheme. I still want Manny in SF... but to how effective he can be? I'm having a hard time getting off this here fence in either direction.

I dont needs their stats to know that Lawson gets pressure. Every game I watch he's getting pressure, he just doesn't have that final step or there is not enough pressure coming from the other side.

No, I agree... no stats needed to see what Manny can do. No stats needed to see that QBs are able to get the ball off quickly and negate our pressure. Let's hope the sissy soft DB coverages of old have gone the way of Manusky.

Can we also pray that the slow and overly obvious safety blitz right up the middle is over. And we can see some creativity in the packages.

LOL...brother, I've been praying for YEARS!
hey nothings worse than sopoaga starting at left end! so give him a shot i say!
Originally posted by asyouwere:
hey nothings worse than sopoaga starting at left end! so give him a shot i say!

You could do a lot worse than Sopoaga starting at left end (see Balmer, Kentwan).

But back to the original topic, I pray McDonald is re-signed. Franklin looks like he is as good as gone, and I'm really worried about the d-line depth on this team. RJF is still an unknown to me, and then there is Demetric Evans (if he re-signs) and Tukuafu. I'd be happy with a McDonald/Sopoaga/Smith.