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Greatest/Pivotal moments in every franchise history

Originally posted by English:
For the Skins I think Joe Gibbs deserves a mention. Or Riggins, but less pivotal.

For all people love to hate him, you have to mention Al Davis.

I'm gonna have to agree with all those that said Joe Gibbs for the Skins. If a specific moment is needed then I'm with wysiwyg on Riggins' TD run in Super Bowl XVII.
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas

I had to rip my eyes out after reading this post. Hopefully its a joke.
What's a joke about it? Drafting Peyton Manning was their pivotal moment. He was drafted at #1 indicating that the Colts were pretty bad, 2 years in the future he has them in the playoffs. He has 4 MVPs and a Superbowl ring in a city that had never touched football success before.

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas
*sigh* I've seen this argument a 1000 times from Dolphin fans who'll march to their grave claiming that "Marino was better than Montana" because of the regular season stat-comparison.

You take Manning and I'll take a man with 3 times as many Championships for the Colt franchise in Unitas.
He didnt even play the full game in that 3rd championship. The first 2 I'll give him credit for though his stats in the '58 championship game were awesome. In my opinion Peyton Manning is one of the Top 10 Football players ever, and probably top 3 QB ever but that's just me.
Originally posted by English:
Minnesota - coming up with a stupid nickname like The Purple People Eaters

Cincy - getting beaten in two superbowls, by, um, who was it again?

Actually, the pivotal moment in Cincy's history is either Paul Brown buying the team, or Paul Brown deciding to pass up Bill Walsh for the head coaching job
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

I agree with all except the Colts.

The problem with Unitas is he was the Baltimore Colts. I know its the same franchise, but I think that does make a big difference.
I'd add Mike Holmgren in 99/01 Hasselbeck as Seattle's turning point.
redskins-that phantom PI call against Lott allowed them to go to the superbowl
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas

I had to rip my eyes out after reading this post. Hopefully its a joke.
What's a joke about it? Drafting Peyton Manning was their pivotal moment. He was drafted at #1 indicating that the Colts were pretty bad, 2 years in the future he has them in the playoffs. He has 4 MVPs and a Superbowl ring in a city that had never touched football success before.

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas
*sigh* I've seen this argument a 1000 times from Dolphin fans who'll march to their grave claiming that "Marino was better than Montana" because of the regular season stat-comparison.

You take Manning and I'll take a man with 3 times as many Championships for the Colt franchise in Unitas.
He didnt even play the full game in that 3rd championship. The first 2 I'll give him credit for though his stats in the '58 championship game were awesome. In my opinion Peyton Manning is one of the Top 10 Football players ever, and probably top 3 QB ever but that's just me.

I agree. Just because Unitas is older doesnt mean he was better. Its pretty much impossible to compare the eras they played in but the competition that Manning had to face while becoming one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game was much better than the competition Unitas went up against.
Originally posted by btthepunk:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas

I had to rip my eyes out after reading this post. Hopefully its a joke.
What's a joke about it? Drafting Peyton Manning was their pivotal moment. He was drafted at #1 indicating that the Colts were pretty bad, 2 years in the future he has them in the playoffs. He has 4 MVPs and a Superbowl ring in a city that had never touched football success before.

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas
*sigh* I've seen this argument a 1000 times from Dolphin fans who'll march to their grave claiming that "Marino was better than Montana" because of the regular season stat-comparison.

You take Manning and I'll take a man with 3 times as many Championships for the Colt franchise in Unitas.
He didnt even play the full game in that 3rd championship. The first 2 I'll give him credit for though his stats in the '58 championship game were awesome. In my opinion Peyton Manning is one of the Top 10 Football players ever, and probably top 3 QB ever but that's just me.

I agree. Just because Unitas is older doesnt mean he was better. Its pretty much impossible to compare the eras they played in but the competition that Manning had to face while becoming one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game was much better than the competition Unitas went up against.

I certainly don't fall under the "older is better" point-of-view for the yesteryear players, but I can't ignore the history that came before today's performers. That being said, I think it would behoove some people in this thread to wrap their brains around the contributions of Unitas, to both football and the QB position:

From John Clayton:

Who's better, Manning or Unitas?

My vote stays with Unitas. As great as Manning is -- and he is a lock to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer -- Unitas set the standards for the modern-day quarterback. He revolutionized the game; he went against tradition.

Unitas played from 1955 to 1973. That was a time when defenses were hard hitting but vanilla in concept and offenses were built around the run. Unitas started the idea of the comeback passing offense, currently known as the two-minute offense. He was doing that in the late 1950s, 30 years before the concept became popular.

Remember, teams didn't chart fourth-quarter comebacks until Broncos fans started asking about John Elway's fourth-quarter victories in the 1980s. Trust me, there isn't an exact science for tracking fourth-quarter comebacks, but most seem to accept the numbers tabulated by The Elias Sports Bureau.

For Manning, Monday night's 27-23 victory over the Dolphins was the 37th time he led a fourth-quarter comeback. Focus on that number for a second. The Colts were awful and could barely win a game during his rookie season (1998). Throw out that season, and Manning averages between three and four comeback wins a season over his career. His ability to win that many games under those circumstances is why Manning and the Colts are at the 12-win almost level every season. But by all accounts, Unitas had 34 fourth-quarter comeback wins during his career -- even though no one thought to chart them at the time.

Unitas won a Super Bowl and two NFL championships. Manning has one Super Bowl ring and the chance to win others. My vote still goes to Unitas.


MCrab- trying to diminish Unitas' 3rd Championship because he didn't finish the last game is a comically weak-ass attempt to diminish his value since he happened lead the Colts to the best record in the AFC that year and, in the post-season, had 2 TD passes in a 17-0 win vs CIN, then tossed the 4th quarter, game-clinching TD vs the Raiders in the AFC Championship game (27-17) and went on to win Man of the Year... so feel free to either explain your rationale, or... (insert back-pedal here)

Also, FWIW, many, many "experts" actually still rank only Johnny Unitas as the only QB above Montana.

Manning, while a stud, a franchise-maker & 1st ballot-Famer, has yet to overcome JU & JM, as far as greatness, importance and full-on franchise icons.


Class dismissed.
[ Edited by IWASATTHECATCH on May 30, 2012 at 11:54 AM ]
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by btthepunk:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas

I had to rip my eyes out after reading this post. Hopefully its a joke.
What's a joke about it? Drafting Peyton Manning was their pivotal moment. He was drafted at #1 indicating that the Colts were pretty bad, 2 years in the future he has them in the playoffs. He has 4 MVPs and a Superbowl ring in a city that had never touched football success before.

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas
*sigh* I've seen this argument a 1000 times from Dolphin fans who'll march to their grave claiming that "Marino was better than Montana" because of the regular season stat-comparison.

You take Manning and I'll take a man with 3 times as many Championships for the Colt franchise in Unitas.
He didnt even play the full game in that 3rd championship. The first 2 I'll give him credit for though his stats in the '58 championship game were awesome. In my opinion Peyton Manning is one of the Top 10 Football players ever, and probably top 3 QB ever but that's just me.

I agree. Just because Unitas is older doesnt mean he was better. Its pretty much impossible to compare the eras they played in but the competition that Manning had to face while becoming one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game was much better than the competition Unitas went up against.

I certainly don't fall under the "older is better" point-of-view for the yesteryear players, but I can't ignore the history that came before today's performers. That being said, I think it would behoove some people in this thread to wrap their brains around the contributions of Unitas, to both football and the QB position:

From John Clayton:

Who's better, Manning or Unitas?

My vote stays with Unitas. As great as Manning is -- and he is a lock to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer -- Unitas set the standards for the modern-day quarterback. He revolutionized the game; he went against tradition.

Unitas played from 1955 to 1973. That was a time when defenses were hard hitting but vanilla in concept and offenses were built around the run. Unitas started the idea of the comeback passing offense, currently known as the two-minute offense. He was doing that in the late 1950s, 30 years before the concept became popular.

Remember, teams didn't chart fourth-quarter comebacks until Broncos fans started asking about John Elway's fourth-quarter victories in the 1980s. Trust me, there isn't an exact science for tracking fourth-quarter comebacks, but most seem to accept the numbers tabulated by The Elias Sports Bureau.

For Manning, Monday night's 27-23 victory over the Dolphins was the 37th time he led a fourth-quarter comeback. Focus on that number for a second. The Colts were awful and could barely win a game during his rookie season (1998). Throw out that season, and Manning averages between three and four comeback wins a season over his career. His ability to win that many games under those circumstances is why Manning and the Colts are at the 12-win almost level every season. But by all accounts, Unitas had 34 fourth-quarter comeback wins during his career -- even though no one thought to chart them at the time.

Unitas won a Super Bowl and two NFL championships. Manning has one Super Bowl ring and the chance to win others. My vote still goes to Unitas.


MCrab- trying to diminish Unitas' 3rd Championship because he didn't finish the last game is a comically weak-ass attempt to diminish his value since he happened lead the Colts to the best record in the AFC that year and, in the post-season, had 2 TD passes in a 17-0 win vs CIN, then tossed the 4th quarter, game-clinching TD vs the Raiders in the AFC Championship game (27-17) and went on to win Man of the Year... so feel free to either explain your rationale, or... (insert back-pedal here)

Also, FWIW, many, many "experts" actually still rank only Johnny Unitas as the only QB above Montana.

Manning, while a stud, a franchise-maker & 1st ballot-Famer, has yet to overcome JU & JM, as far as greatness, importance and full-on franchise icons.


Class dismissed.

I understand what you mean. Sure he set the standard for many future hall of fame QB's, but that still doesnt mean hes better. No doubt hes one of the best to ever play the game. I think too many people (not saying you) think the older players are better because they did it first.
Originally posted by btthepunk:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by btthepunk:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas

I had to rip my eyes out after reading this post. Hopefully its a joke.
What's a joke about it? Drafting Peyton Manning was their pivotal moment. He was drafted at #1 indicating that the Colts were pretty bad, 2 years in the future he has them in the playoffs. He has 4 MVPs and a Superbowl ring in a city that had never touched football success before.

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by MCrabs15:
Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
one word: Jack Kent Cooke hiring Joe Gibbs


Raiders- Al Davis>>>> everything else combined
Cardinals- leaving St. Louis (how do they leave St. Louis, then, St. Louis promptly gets a re-located franchise? WTF, anyone? )
Seattle- just getting a franchise in 1976 is/was their biggest accomplishment. #2 getting Steve Largent aka Great White Hope
Chargers- The near-miss-era of Don Coryell & Dan Fouts >>> Anything LT ever did
Dolphins- Perfect season>>>>>>> the uneventful sh*t I took this morning >>>>>> Dan Marino (besides his Ace Ventura role as "Self")
Bears- George S. Halas >>>>>>> Sweetness (favorite non-9er ever)
Ravens- it's gotta' suck when "the face of your franchise" should have been behind bars for "accessory to murder charges" after your limo carted your best friend/the killer away from a double-homicide. Ray-Ray's retired jersey should be an orange jumpsuit provided by the state of Georgia's penal institute.
Cinci- Paul Brown (see: Al Davis importance re: Raiders)
Panthers- Cherica Adams' baby survives the multiple gunshots from her WR father
Colts- Peyton Manning.... Manning is only the 2nd best Colt QB, young buck. Anybody choosing Manning over Unitas, probably would choose Young over Montana. (No apologies, Corey and AB! )
Jags- Burnell's still the greatest Jag, IMO... MJD is #2, but it's very close.

Manning nearly broke every record, had like 10 straight 12 win seasons, and totally changed the culture of Indianapolis, did I mention he got the Colts their first title in Indianapolis? Unitas was great but Peyton is the best thing to ever happen to the Colts franchise. Manning > Unitas
*sigh* I've seen this argument a 1000 times from Dolphin fans who'll march to their grave claiming that "Marino was better than Montana" because of the regular season stat-comparison.

You take Manning and I'll take a man with 3 times as many Championships for the Colt franchise in Unitas.
He didnt even play the full game in that 3rd championship. The first 2 I'll give him credit for though his stats in the '58 championship game were awesome. In my opinion Peyton Manning is one of the Top 10 Football players ever, and probably top 3 QB ever but that's just me.

I agree. Just because Unitas is older doesnt mean he was better. Its pretty much impossible to compare the eras they played in but the competition that Manning had to face while becoming one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game was much better than the competition Unitas went up against.

I certainly don't fall under the "older is better" point-of-view for the yesteryear players, but I can't ignore the history that came before today's performers. That being said, I think it would behoove some people in this thread to wrap their brains around the contributions of Unitas, to both football and the QB position:

From John Clayton:

Who's better, Manning or Unitas?

My vote stays with Unitas. As great as Manning is -- and he is a lock to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer -- Unitas set the standards for the modern-day quarterback. He revolutionized the game; he went against tradition.

Unitas played from 1955 to 1973. That was a time when defenses were hard hitting but vanilla in concept and offenses were built around the run. Unitas started the idea of the comeback passing offense, currently known as the two-minute offense. He was doing that in the late 1950s, 30 years before the concept became popular.

Remember, teams didn't chart fourth-quarter comebacks until Broncos fans started asking about John Elway's fourth-quarter victories in the 1980s. Trust me, there isn't an exact science for tracking fourth-quarter comebacks, but most seem to accept the numbers tabulated by The Elias Sports Bureau.

For Manning, Monday night's 27-23 victory over the Dolphins was the 37th time he led a fourth-quarter comeback. Focus on that number for a second. The Colts were awful and could barely win a game during his rookie season (1998). Throw out that season, and Manning averages between three and four comeback wins a season over his career. His ability to win that many games under those circumstances is why Manning and the Colts are at the 12-win almost level every season. But by all accounts, Unitas had 34 fourth-quarter comeback wins during his career -- even though no one thought to chart them at the time.

Unitas won a Super Bowl and two NFL championships. Manning has one Super Bowl ring and the chance to win others. My vote still goes to Unitas.


MCrab- trying to diminish Unitas' 3rd Championship because he didn't finish the last game is a comically weak-ass attempt to diminish his value since he happened lead the Colts to the best record in the AFC that year and, in the post-season, had 2 TD passes in a 17-0 win vs CIN, then tossed the 4th quarter, game-clinching TD vs the Raiders in the AFC Championship game (27-17) and went on to win Man of the Year... so feel free to either explain your rationale, or... (insert back-pedal here)

Also, FWIW, many, many "experts" actually still rank only Johnny Unitas as the only QB above Montana.

Manning, while a stud, a franchise-maker & 1st ballot-Famer, has yet to overcome JU & JM, as far as greatness, importance and full-on franchise icons.


Class dismissed.

I understand what you mean. Sure he set the standard for many future hall of fame QB's, but that still doesnt mean hes better. No doubt hes one of the best to ever play the game. I think too many people (not saying you) think the older players are better because they did it first.

"Set the standard" in one thing, but to not only revolutionize and define the position, itself, but still winning 3-times as many Championships than the person being hailed as "greater than" is absurd, too say the least. I never saw him play, but it's easy to see. I, also, never saw Jim Brown, but, personally believe had he played in a latter era, he'd be nothing more than All-Decade (at best), rather than the #1 player ever, as has been voted by many, but... that's just my take.