Who is most at fault for this CBA mess?

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

[ Edited by Paul_Hofer on Mar 13, 2011 at 08:00:07 ]

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

i think the dichotomy is fascinating as well. you paint it in starker terms than i might, but there's a ring of truth there.

anyway, i reject the idea that because a billionaire owner is rarer than a world-class athlete that the owner should have "divine right" over the business. Its that smugness, arrogance, and unchecked ego that led us into this problem, which is why I find the owners at fault.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

i think the dichotomy is fascinating as well. you paint it in starker terms than i might, but there's a ring of truth there.

anyway, i reject the idea that because a billionaire owner is rarer than a world-class athlete that the owner should have "divine right" over the business. Its that smugness, arrogance, and unchecked ego that led us into this problem, which is why I find the owners at fault.

There is an anti union atmosphere at the moment brought about by fear in this dire economy. People are mad at anyone who has a perceived advantage over their own situation. Several wealthy people have told me they envy my "pension plan." I offered to trade straight up but they declined. They might have made that trade with an NFL player. So, when times are tough everyone begins looking out for number one, and I can't blame them too much...just want them to see some logic.

This is a financial situation between two groups: owners with a large part of their net worth invested, players with their entire life invested. Too bad they can't list the differences and tackle them over a couple of years rather than a make or break one time negotiation. I personally hate the 18 game idea because I see players wearing down during the season already and injuries will increase. Each game is devalued and thus the play declines.

If this lockout lasts through the year I would like to see the players form a new league and then we would have competition for the fans. That might help the game evolve.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Mar 13, 2011 at 09:47:22 ]

Let's get this straight everyone, it is the owners who are trying to take from the players, not the other way around. Last I checked, the NFL was a profitable venture as it was, so why the need to reduce the players cut of the ever-growing pot?

The other stuff can be worked out: the 18 game season, the OTA's, the rookie salary cap.

Really, this is about the owners trying to stick it to the players. These are the same owners who felt it okay to charge fans to watch the game on tv outside the stadium. Gooddell needs to be fired.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by TheChozen:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
How can anyone side with the owners?

The owners want the players to take a pay cut when the NFL revenues are the same or higher since the last CBA from what I heard.

I hear the real problem is the owners don't want to open the books bc the $$$ making owners don't want the small market team owners to see what they are really making.

This!!!!!

it seems so simple, but for some reason is so hard for some people to grasp.

it is almost as people are just jealous of the players salaries.

people just need to put themselves in the players shoes. Imagine you have a job and you are a specialist and a key component to the business (a very successful business). You are creating the same or more money for the biz, and your boss comes to you and says take a pay cut for no reason except that he wants to put the $$$ in his pocket.

are people so blind to not see how simple this is? or too jealous?

Originally posted by bzborow1:
Let's get this straight everyone, it is the owners who are trying to take from the players, not the other way around. Last I checked, the NFL was a profitable venture as it was, so why the need to reduce the players cut of the ever-growing pot?

The other stuff can be worked out: the 18 game season, the OTA's, the rookie salary cap.

Really, this is about the owners trying to stick it to the players. These are the same owners who felt it okay to charge fans to watch the game on tv outside the stadium. Gooddell needs to be fired.

this

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

i think the dichotomy is fascinating as well. you paint it in starker terms than i might, but there's a ring of truth there.

anyway, i reject the idea that because a billionaire owner is rarer than a world-class athlete that the owner should have "divine right" over the business. Its that smugness, arrogance, and unchecked ego that led us into this problem, which is why I find the owners at fault.

There is an anti union atmosphere at the moment brought about by fear in this dire economy. People are mad at anyone who has a perceived advantage over their own situation. Several wealthy people have told me they envy my "pension plan." I offered to trade straight up but they declined. They might have made that trade with an NFL player. So, when times are tough everyone begins looking out for number one, and I can't blame them too much...just want them to see some logic.

This is a financial situation between two groups: owners with a large part of their net worth invested, players with their entire life invested. Too bad they can't list the differences and tackle them over a couple of years rather than a make or break one time negotiation. I personally hate the 18 game idea because I see players wearing down during the season already and injuries will increase. Each game is devalued and thus the play declines.

If this lockout lasts through the year I would like to see the players form a new league and then we would have competition for the fans. That might help the game evolve.

well said

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a comunist world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

FTFY

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by TheChozen:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:
How can anyone side with the owners?

The owners want the players to take a pay cut when the NFL revenues are the same or higher since the last CBA from what I heard.

I hear the real problem is the owners don't want to open the books bc the $$$ making owners don't want the small market team owners to see what they are really making.

This!!!!!

it seems so simple, but for some reason is so hard for some people to grasp.

it is almost as people are just jealous of the players salaries.

people just need to put themselves in the players shoes. Imagine you have a job and you are a specialist and a key component to the business (a very successful business). You are creating the same or more money for the biz, and your boss comes to you and says take a pay cut for no reason except that he wants to put the $$$ in his pocket.

are people so blind to not see how simple this is? or too jealous?

yeah, i think its a couple different things. i think players salaries, and their celebrity, make it hard for people to see them as employees in a business. there's also the general anti-union sentiment as others have pointed out in this thread, which leads people to assume that the players are "striking" or "greedy" when the evidence doesn't support that. finally, its the attitude that athletes should "shut up and play" and just do what they're told. I don't know if the roots of that are the stereotype that athletes are all morons, or if its a race thing or what, but some people just want their athletes to be mindless automatons of the corporate structure that pays them. No one should expect that from themselves and I don't see why athletes should be any different.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

Democratic? I think you defined socialism. Also a king was born into his power and it can only be taken away by force. The original owners of the NFL built the product up with their own money and sweat. Current owners may have inherited their money or earned it themselves, irregardless that, own NFL franchises, which are a business. What I find interesting is the players getting a defined % of the revenue, and a lot of people are ok with that acting like the players are the only employees paid by the team. If the players are more important than the owners let them all quit and form their own league. Most of them aren't even of average intelligence and couldn't run a hot dog cart* if left to their own devices. The players need the owners more than the owners need them. Jerry Jones would find other business ventures to occupy his time and money and I am sure would do well. What would a guy like Chris Johnson of the Titans do with out the NFL? Jail would be my guess, I am sure he isn't smart enough to do something you could teach an 8 year old.

* No offense to anyone who owns a hot dog cart, in the right location I have heard you can make $150,000 a year. Just a reference to a business that isn't real hard to run.

Asking for 10 years worth of books is absurd imo.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

Democratic? I think you defined socialism. Also a king was born into his power and it can only be taken away by force. The original owners of the NFL built the product up with their own money and sweat. Current owners may have inherited their money or earned it themselves, irregardless that, own NFL franchises, which are a business. What I find interesting is the players getting a defined % of the revenue, and a lot of people are ok with that acting like the players are the only employees paid by the team. If the players are more important than the owners let them all quit and form their own league. Most of them aren't even of average intelligence and couldn't run a hot dog cart* if left to their own devices. The players need the owners more than the owners need them. Jerry Jones would find other business ventures to occupy his time and money and I am sure would do well. What would a guy like Chris Johnson of the Titans do with out the NFL? Jail would be my guess, I am sure he isn't smart enough to do something you could teach an 8 year old.

* No offense to anyone who owns a hot dog cart, in the right location I have heard you can make $150,000 a year. Just a reference to a business that isn't real hard to run.

The owners need TV $$$ and people watch the games for the players.

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

Democratic? I think you defined socialism. Also a king was born into his power and it can only be taken away by force. The original owners of the NFL built the product up with their own money and sweat. Current owners may have inherited their money or earned it themselves, irregardless that, own NFL franchises, which are a business. What I find interesting is the players getting a defined % of the revenue, and a lot of people are ok with that acting like the players are the only employees paid by the team. If the players are more important than the owners let them all quit and form their own league. Most of them aren't even of average intelligence and couldn't run a hot dog cart* if left to their own devices. The players need the owners more than the owners need them. Jerry Jones would find other business ventures to occupy his time and money and I am sure would do well. What would a guy like Chris Johnson of the Titans do with out the NFL? Jail would be my guess, I am sure he isn't smart enough to do something you could teach an 8 year old.

* No offense to anyone who owns a hot dog cart, in the right location I have heard you can make $150,000 a year. Just a reference to a business that isn't real hard to run.

The owners need TV $$$ and people watch the games for the players.

is it true the owners negotiated with networks that they will get paid $4 billion this year even if this season is canceled?

Originally posted by global_nomad:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

Democratic? I think you defined socialism. Also a king was born into his power and it can only be taken away by force. The original owners of the NFL built the product up with their own money and sweat. Current owners may have inherited their money or earned it themselves, irregardless that, own NFL franchises, which are a business. What I find interesting is the players getting a defined % of the revenue, and a lot of people are ok with that acting like the players are the only employees paid by the team. If the players are more important than the owners let them all quit and form their own league. Most of them aren't even of average intelligence and couldn't run a hot dog cart* if left to their own devices. The players need the owners more than the owners need them. Jerry Jones would find other business ventures to occupy his time and money and I am sure would do well. What would a guy like Chris Johnson of the Titans do with out the NFL? Jail would be my guess, I am sure he isn't smart enough to do something you could teach an 8 year old.

* No offense to anyone who owns a hot dog cart, in the right location I have heard you can make $150,000 a year. Just a reference to a business that isn't real hard to run.

The owners need TV $$$ and people watch the games for the players.

is it true the owners negotiated with networks that they will get paid $4 billion this year even if this season is canceled?

from my understanding, the owners put this $$ aside to afford a lockout. I believe that isnt allowed bc it is an unfair leverage for negotiations.

Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?