Who is most at fault for this CBA mess?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by mike:
and the past few weeks I've read that the players had "a pretty good offer on the table" from the owners, but their greedy asses believed that with player-friendly Judge Doty they could win more.

They need a mediator to just lay down the lines of compromising:
-16 games(sorry owners)
- rookie cap(sorry players)

Rookies should not be having this mentality that they have the right to millions of guaranteed money just because they had a good college career. Your rookie year should be proving that you deserve the big bucks, then you get the big contract. Until then, you're just a prospect. Owners have plenty of examples of wasted money on the jamarcus russells of the league.

Owners on the other hand are just trying to increase that huge revenue by increasing the amount of games, this would increase injuries and overall make the playoffs become a game full of guys who didn't even play in the regular season because half of the team would be injured. Preseason isn't the intensity of a real game(not to mention most starters only play a few plays) so reducing preseason won't reduce injuries.

I don't know what else they're arguing about, but seriously just get an independent party to draw the lines since obviously the two sides are both greedy stubborn b*****ds.

Many good points, but college players are proving their worth in college for no pay. So, it's like a minor league. Depending on the cap structure I could see it working but would support it only if more money went into retirement benefits for players who are already retired. These guys retire really young, seldom find as much success out of football, and very often wind up strapped by inflation and medical problems when they hit their seventies/eighties.

A mediator can't make sides agree unless it is binding arbitration. That might be a good way to go but to my knowledge is not being supported. I suppose congress could twist some arms and get it done however.

PS: As for comparing to soccer or other sports I don't know enough to be fair. But I did stay at a holiday inn in London once!

College is still college, there are very few pro-style offenses and so qb's can have schemes that "trick" the other team rather than teaching a qb schemes that would work against pro's. They can also rack up stats against teams that have less talent. Even in big games you're at best playing against mediocre 4th-5th round college guys+a couple 1st round talent rookies.

They might not be making money in college, but most of the 1st round talented guys are on full ride scholarships so it's not like they're PAYING to go to college either. Work at mcdonalds part time till you can make the big bucks like any normal person.

I don't know about soccer, but I watch a lot of hockey, where they have something like a 700-800k rookie capped contract. They get drafted then often actually finish up their degrees for a year unless they're 1st rounders. Most of their contracts are two-way so if you aren't good enough you get sent to the minors where you make only like 50k-100k a year. The best talent will prove that they're worth the huge multi-year deal, while the lesser talent will stick to cheaper contracts.

I hope they do arbitration then, and hopefully that's a quick enough process. They need to quit messing around so we can actually have a season.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

Democratic? I think you defined socialism. Also a king was born into his power and it can only be taken away by force. The original owners of the NFL built the product up with their own money and sweat. Current owners may have inherited their money or earned it themselves, irregardless that, own NFL franchises, which are a business. What I find interesting is the players getting a defined % of the revenue, and a lot of people are ok with that acting like the players are the only employees paid by the team. If the players are more important than the owners let them all quit and form their own league. Most of them aren't even of average intelligence and couldn't run a hot dog cart* if left to their own devices. The players need the owners more than the owners need them. Jerry Jones would find other business ventures to occupy his time and money and I am sure would do well. What would a guy like Chris Johnson of the Titans do with out the NFL? Jail would be my guess, I am sure he isn't smart enough to do something you could teach an 8 year old.

* No offense to anyone who owns a hot dog cart, in the right location I have heard you can make $150,000 a year. Just a reference to a business that isn't real hard to run.

No, democratic is what I meant. And I used the correct word. See below. Democracy is primarily about rights while the other two systems are primarily about property.

But remember, as a royalist you are siding with the Yorks (and against Patrick Willis).

communism
a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

socialism
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

democratic
pertaining to or of the nature of democracy or a democracy.

de·moc·ra·cy
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system. USA and Canada are democracies.
2. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
3. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
4. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

The owners put themselves in this position and nobdy else did. Its was OK to give the players this much money before when they signed the old cba. Now its to good? The ratings and money is higher now then ever before. They wont provide all of the finacial reports of all 32 teams for a reason. The owners put themselves here.

And as an owner of a business they have a right to fix it......

The players would not make near as much money without the hard work of the owners who built up this league.......

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

The owners put themselves in this position and nobdy else did. Its was OK to give the players this much money before when they signed the old cba. Now its to good? The ratings and money is higher now then ever before. They wont provide all of the finacial reports of all 32 teams for a reason. The owners put themselves here.

And as an owner of a business they have a right to fix it......

The players would not make near as much money without the hard work of the owners who built up this league.......

Thats funny cause I dont buy jerseys, posters and shoes becuase of the owners. Players are what makes me purchase those things. I watch the players on sunday, not the owners.

Originally posted by jreff22:
both

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

The owners put themselves in this position and nobdy else did. Its was OK to give the players this much money before when they signed the old cba. Now its to good? The ratings and money is higher now then ever before. They wont provide all of the finacial reports of all 32 teams for a reason. The owners put themselves here.

And as an owner of a business they have a right to fix it......

The players would not make near as much money without the hard work of the owners who built up this league.......

Thats funny cause I dont buy jerseys, posters and shoes becuase of the owners. Players are what makes me purchase those things. I watch the players on sunday, not the owners.

if Patrick Willis retired tomorrow, you would still watch football

You root for a logo not players

sad but true

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

The owners put themselves in this position and nobdy else did. Its was OK to give the players this much money before when they signed the old cba. Now its to good? The ratings and money is higher now then ever before. They wont provide all of the finacial reports of all 32 teams for a reason. The owners put themselves here.

And as an owner of a business they have a right to fix it......

The players would not make near as much money without the hard work of the owners who built up this league.......

Thats funny cause I dont buy jerseys, posters and shoes becuase of the owners. Players are what makes me purchase those things. I watch the players on sunday, not the owners.

if Patrick Willis retired tomorrow, you would still watch football

You root for a logo not players

sad but true

actually i watch bc the players have a rare and extremely valuable skill set that has the ability to generate billions of dollars

it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

it is a billion dollar industry bc we want to watch rare talent, not average joes. There is a reason why SEC games are on TV and not division 3 games

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

At what other time have you lauded the Yorks--those paragons of foresight?

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

it is a billion dollar industry bc we want to watch rare talent, not average joes. There is a reason why SEC games are on TV and not division 3 games

so we should just give the players what they want.....

Let's see the players run and operate a billion dollar league........

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

it is a billion dollar industry bc we want to watch rare talent, not average joes. There is a reason why SEC games are on TV and not division 3 games

so we should just give the players what they want.....

Let's see the players run and operate a billion dollar league........

the players arent asking for more money

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

it is a billion dollar industry bc we want to watch rare talent, not average joes. There is a reason why SEC games are on TV and not division 3 games

so we should just give the players what they want.....

Let's see the players run and operate a billion dollar league........

the players arent asking for more money

Yes, but operating a business with 60 percent going to not even all the labor is absurd. Nobody is asking them to go to the poor house with the deal, they will still get paid and blow it as usual and be broke when they are out of the league.

60 percent to the players is asinine ........ I think they should get about 45-50. that's more than enough so that owners who have grown the game over the years can continue to grow the game...... and grow the pie........

Yes, the owners cut a bad deal..... but when they could so according to the last contract, they opted out so they could fix the issues that the league will face.......

Some of you are acting like players are above labor, and they are not....

They are just highly skilled workers and they are and will continued to get compensated as such even at 45-50 percent.

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by blizzuntz:

Originally posted by LundyLove:
it would not be a billion dollar industry without the forsight of the owners and them spending money over the years to build the game up....

The owners give the players the forum to preform......

i would like to see the players try to run a league and see how far they would make it.............

If these players don't wanna play for 50 percent of the pie , the next best will and they will be forgotten

it is a billion dollar industry bc we want to watch rare talent, not average joes. There is a reason why SEC games are on TV and not division 3 games

so we should just give the players what they want.....

Let's see the players run and operate a billion dollar league........

the players arent asking for more money

Yes, but operating a business with 60 percent going to not even all the labor is absurd. Nobody is asking them to go to the poor house with the deal, they will still get paid and blow it as usual and be broke when they are out of the league.

60 percent to the players is asinine ........ I think they should get about 45-50. that's more than enough so that owners who have grown the game over the years can continue to grow the game...... and grow the pie........

Yes, the owners cut a bad deal..... but when they could so according to the last contract, they opted out so they could fix the issues that the league will face.......

Some of you are acting like players are above labor, and they are not....

They are just highly skilled workers and they are and will continued to get compensated as such even at 45-50 percent.

I’m fine with the owners wanting to renegotiate a better settlement for themselves. And I’m fine with players wanting to do the same. But considering the perks and subsidization owners get from local and state governments, I’ve got no sympathy for them in this one. Never feel sorry for a billionaire who tries to cry poor.

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Great! Then the Raiders will be the football equivalent of the Yankees. No salary cap would ruin football.

I think you're point has weight towards revenue sharing, but eliminating the cap and draft would destroy the sport.