Who is most at fault for this CBA mess?

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Mar 13, 2011 at 12:37:28 ]

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

I guess that's the ultimate dilemma that everybody faces then...whether you should value money/greed or value goodness/fairness because greed and goodness do not work hand-in-hand. As of right now, I think greed is winning.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

Fair or not, small market teams still need to sell tickets and they won't if they know their team is at a significant disadvantage with no hope of improvement.

Yeah lets just let the patriots draft peterson, packers can have AJ green(driver's getting kinda old), while panthers,broncos and bills continue to be at the bottom of the league every single year. Sounds like a fun league to watch right?

[ Edited by mike on Mar 13, 2011 at 12:48:07 ]

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

Fair or not, small market teams still need to sell tickets and they won't if they know their team is at a significant disadvantage with no hope of improvement.

Yeah lets just let the patriots draft peterson, packers can have AJ green(driver's getting kinda old), while panthers,broncos and bills continue to be at the bottom of the league every single year. Sounds like a fun league to watch right?

The English Premier League doesn't seem to mind, neither do its fans judging from its popularity

It doesn't matter now. We the fans get screwed.

Originally posted by DesiDez:

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

Fair or not, small market teams still need to sell tickets and they won't if they know their team is at a significant disadvantage with no hope of improvement.

Yeah lets just let the patriots draft peterson, packers can have AJ green(driver's getting kinda old), while panthers,broncos and bills continue to be at the bottom of the league every single year. Sounds like a fun league to watch right?

The English Premier League doesn't seem to mind, neither do its fans judging from its popularity

The NFL isnt broken, no need to change anything no matter what. Do we want a league like Spanish premier league where there are only 2 teams that matter?

and the past few weeks I've read that the players had "a pretty good offer on the table" from the owners, but their greedy asses believed that with player-friendly Judge Doty they could win more.

They need a mediator to just lay down the lines of compromising:
-16 games(sorry owners)
- rookie cap(sorry players)

Rookies should not be having this mentality that they have the right to millions of guaranteed money just because they had a good college career. Your rookie year should be proving that you deserve the big bucks, then you get the big contract. Until then, you're just a prospect. Owners have plenty of examples of wasted money on the jamarcus russells of the league.

Owners on the other hand are just trying to increase that huge revenue by increasing the amount of games, this would increase injuries and overall make the playoffs become a game full of guys who didn't even play in the regular season because half of the team would be injured. Preseason isn't the intensity of a real game(not to mention most starters only play a few plays) so reducing preseason won't reduce injuries.

I don't know what else they're arguing about, but seriously just get an independent party to draw the lines since obviously the two sides are both greedy stubborn b*****ds.

Originally posted by DesiDez:

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

Fair or not, small market teams still need to sell tickets and they won't if they know their team is at a significant disadvantage with no hope of improvement.

Yeah lets just let the patriots draft peterson, packers can have AJ green(driver's getting kinda old), while panthers,broncos and bills continue to be at the bottom of the league every single year. Sounds like a fun league to watch right?

The English Premier League doesn't seem to mind, neither do its fans judging from its popularity

Unless it's the world cup no one gives a rats ass about that league in any country other than England.

Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Originally posted by mike:
and the past few weeks I've read that the players had "a pretty good offer on the table" from the owners, but their greedy asses believed that with player-friendly Judge Doty they could win more.

They need a mediator to just lay down the lines of compromising:
-16 games(sorry owners)
- rookie cap(sorry players)

Rookies should not be having this mentality that they have the right to millions of guaranteed money just because they had a good college career. Your rookie year should be proving that you deserve the big bucks, then you get the big contract. Until then, you're just a prospect. Owners have plenty of examples of wasted money on the jamarcus russells of the league.

Owners on the other hand are just trying to increase that huge revenue by increasing the amount of games, this would increase injuries and overall make the playoffs become a game full of guys who didn't even play in the regular season because half of the team would be injured. Preseason isn't the intensity of a real game(not to mention most starters only play a few plays) so reducing preseason won't reduce injuries.

I don't know what else they're arguing about, but seriously just get an independent party to draw the lines since obviously the two sides are both greedy stubborn b*****ds.

Many good points, but college players are proving their worth in college for no pay. So, it's like a minor league. Depending on the cap structure I could see it working but would support it only if more money went into retirement benefits for players who are already retired. These guys retire really young, seldom find as much success out of football, and very often wind up strapped by inflation and medical problems when they hit their seventies/eighties.

A mediator can't make sides agree unless it is binding arbitration. That might be a good way to go but to my knowledge is not being supported. I suppose congress could twist some arms and get it done however.

PS: As for comparing to soccer or other sports I don't know enough to be fair. But I did stay at a holiday inn in London once!

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Mar 13, 2011 at 13:16:13 ]

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

[ Edited by LundyLove on Mar 13, 2011 at 13:20:41 ]

A lot of bad arguments here, and I wanted to address a few. Assuming that players get 59% (I don't know the percentage), that does not mean that the owners get to keep 41%. They still have to pay coaches, referees, stadium costs, and million other things from that 41%.

The owners have shared considerable financial information with the players, and have offered to allow a third party to investigate their books, so the players have access to all the information that they need to know if the owners are hiding money or not.

What the owners want is more money to invest in the quality of the football product. They can't amass that if most of the money is spent on ever increasing salaries.

No player will take a pay cut as a result of a new CBA. Future contracts may be slightly less due to a smaller pool. And the owners proposed that even future contracts would have the same pool, if rookie first round picks were paid less.

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Without the owners there would be no such product. This is big business. Sorry players, but you need to accept that.

It is in this only that fans side with the Yorks.

It's fascinating to me to see this thread play out the dichotomy of labor vs. management we see in the world at large. One side believes in the divine right of kings and that people should know their place in the natural order of things while the other side believes in a democratic (comunist) world where rights belong to everyone equally. The former sees the owners as the product while the latter sees the players as at least as important.

FTFY

If you're going to incorrectly change my words, then at least spell correctly. See Post #76.

[ Edited by Paul_Hofer on Mar 13, 2011 at 13:37:35 ]

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by DesiDez:

Originally posted by mike:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by DesiDez:
Owners.

1) they opted out of the current CBA
2) They planned the lockout all along...look at the TV contracts they tried to negotiate if there would be no football.

But in reality I don't blame the owners for asking for more money, just like the don't mind the salaries that players make. This is America. If you haven't noticed, there are lot of rich people who make a lot of money and they aren't humanitarians, they aren't curing cancer, they're not doctors, or social workers, etc...No one complains about how much Oprah makes, or Rush Limbaugh, or Warren Buffet, or actors/actresses. So I don't care how much Arod, Tiger Woods, Kobe, etc make. If you don't like how much athletes make, then don't watch them play sports.

Personally, I don't like the socialism in the NFL. I'd rather it be run on a purely free market model like the EPL. No salary cap, no draft (free to choose your employer and not rewarding the crappy teams with high draft picks), no age restriction, no revenue sharing. Let the market determine your value. Yes, the big market teams/deep pocket owners will dominate sports but so what? Who said life is supposed to fair?

Christ, Gandhi, Mother Teresa...

Fair or not, small market teams still need to sell tickets and they won't if they know their team is at a significant disadvantage with no hope of improvement.

Yeah lets just let the patriots draft peterson, packers can have AJ green(driver's getting kinda old), while panthers,broncos and bills continue to be at the bottom of the league every single year. Sounds like a fun league to watch right?

The English Premier League doesn't seem to mind, neither do its fans judging from its popularity

Unless it's the world cup no one gives a rats ass about that league in any country other than England.

Um, I dislike football intensely, but you are wrong here. The Premier League is extremely popular worldwide. How do you think they get all that money to overpay those rich foreign players? Why do you think the clubs are really hot property for billionaire foreigners?

Originally posted by LundyLove:

Originally posted by CoachingMatters:
Its the Owners, The players have not asked for a single cent more money in this cba deal. The owners want to decrease players salaries by 17% while adding 2 more games. The only thing the players want is better benefits for retired players.

Of course not.... they are living high on the hog, Meanwhile, the owners can not make enough to reinvest in their product, ie, build stadiums because the players are taking 60 percent of the pie.....

No other business in America has a labor percentage of 60 percent

Not to mention owners have to pay for stadiums.

Other workers......

Organizing and negotiating TV deals to get bigger so that the players can make that's right! more money.....

The owners opted out of a bad deal.....

Don't beleive me?

Why can't the Niners get the money to build a new stadium.....

Because the league can't afford to help anymore......

They had the right to opt out and they did..... They want to grow the game to make more money....

Some of you think its an outrage that an owner of a business actually wants to grow the game to make money........

They offered the players a fair deal that would benefit the players by guaranteeing a level of compensation.....

The players decided to cry and go to judge Daddy

The players would still be filthy rich by being able to play......

The owners, just like , in any business has all the risk........

The players are nothing more than employees and have no risk.,.,,,,


I think the players do need better insurance and retirement, but 60 percent of the total revenue is absurd in any business and eventually, teams like the Niners would suffer in that model........

The owners put themselves in this position and nobdy else did. Its was OK to give the players this much money before when they signed the old cba. Now its to good? The ratings and money is higher now then ever before. They wont provide all of the finacial reports of all 32 teams for a reason. The owners put themselves here.