FCUK Robert Quinn

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Ahmm...no it really doesn't.

Let's assume all things equal and both guys are elite players. Which means the pass rusher can rush the QB/sack him and the elite corner completely shuts down his side.

Pass rush wins as it effects the whole play. If you double/triple team him it opens up other guys to get to the QB.

An offense can simply plan and avoid throwing to the elite corner's side. What happens if the other guys are not nearly as good?

You think Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are that good?

Give me the pass rush any day of the week. There is no question that a solid pass rush screws up the passing game more than anything else.

I'm not saying a top corner doesn't help the pass rush but not as much as the other helps the secondary.

Look at Oakland. There were years they were getting torched in the secondary even though they had Aso back there. They just didn't throw to him but everthing else was open and the QB had time to find it.

Or to put it another way...even if you double team a pass rusher that gives your defense an advantage because someone will be unblocked. Do you expect 2 receivers to run the same route on the corner to give the same advantage?

Hell look at the Colts. Their defense is really not very good outside of their pass rush. If Freeney and Mathis were bums that secondary would be historically bad.

Nate Clements, Shawntae Spencer, Brown and the other guys are not terrible but they will get burned without a rush.

The Jets say hi. That defense is build around Revis and unlike the Colts they're actually good. If it wasn't for the Colts offense forcing teams to throw the ball Indy would be getting routed every week. That elite pass rush on it's own is great until they're asked to stop the run. Then they're getting manhandled.

Here's what you're missing. A lockdown corner shuts down a teams primary option. Very few teams can overcome that. If you can shutdown a team's number one guy with no help you now have extra people to blitz or you can focus safety help on other options.

I agree with you that pass rush is more important, but you can win with either and that's all that matters. The important thing is that you get the best player because the notion that both of these guys are as advertised is false.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Ahmm...no it really doesn't.

Let's assume all things equal and both guys are elite players. Which means the pass rusher can rush the QB/sack him and the elite corner completely shuts down his side.

Pass rush wins as it effects the whole play. If you double/triple team him it opens up other guys to get to the QB.

An offense can simply plan and avoid throwing to the elite corner's side. What happens if the other guys are not nearly as good?

You think Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are that good?

Give me the pass rush any day of the week. There is no question that a solid pass rush screws up the passing game more than anything else.

I'm not saying a top corner doesn't help the pass rush but not as much as the other helps the secondary.

Look at Oakland. There were years they were getting torched in the secondary even though they had Aso back there. They just didn't throw to him but everthing else was open and the QB had time to find it.

Or to put it another way...even if you double team a pass rusher that gives your defense an advantage because someone will be unblocked. Do you expect 2 receivers to run the same route on the corner to give the same advantage?

Hell look at the Colts. Their defense is really not very good outside of their pass rush. If Freeney and Mathis were bums that secondary would be historically bad.

Nate Clements, Shawntae Spencer, Brown and the other guys are not terrible but they will get burned without a rush.

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

Our pass rush sucks

Our secondary is bad

One corner does not make the whole secondary start covering better.

One pass rusher makes the whole secondary better.

If a corner blankets the other teams receiver that team still has several passing options left and if the QB has time to find them(no pass rush would do that) they will get yards out of hte play.

If a pass rusher gets to the QB for a sack/fumble/or just a hurry it doesn't matter how well ANY of the corners are covering.

If the ball doesn't come out of the QB's hand or comes out without any accuracy you just ruined a play.

We have ignored our pass rush for years hoping the guys we have on the team will step up. It hasn't happened yet and it has to be fixed.

As for the idea that good corners don't get drafted later in the draft...how do you figure? Who were the Packer corners this year?Tramon Williams and Sam Shields? Both undrafted.

Want to point out Charles Woodson? They signed him as a free agent.

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

i get it

my view is tha at most a player gets maybe what 2 sacks a game and 5 presuures a game at most

cb have the ability to shut down the best wr for maybe 30 plays and were taking about maybe 35 passing plays a game

and like i said how many elite vn have they been in past 10 year?

revis 1st round pick
namdi 1st round pick
woodson 1st round pick
baily 1st round pick
darrel green 1st round pick
deion sanders 1at sound pick
rod woodson 1st round pick




demarcus ware 1st round
dumweville 4th round
james harrison UDFA
michael strahan 2nd round
lomarr woodly 2nd round
jared allen 4th round
julius peppers 1st round
tamba hali 2nd round
clay matthews 1st round

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by Travisty13:


Look at Dallas, they had the Sack Leader of the NFL (D.Ware) and still had one of the worst Defenses. Its easier to find a great OLB then it is to find an great CB. Look at Pittsburgh. They have no OLB that's a first round pick, yet had the most Sacks in the NFL. Why? Because it's easier to find mid-round OLBs that will eventually develop into good pass-rushers.

Dallas also has Terrence Newman and Mike Jenkins...so why aren't they destroying it out there?

I never claimed one player will make a team a powerhouse but if you had to have one or the other the pass rusher provides more impact.

Still disagree? Just use Dallas as a perfect example. Ware still put up a monster season despite nobody else helping out. Next guy had 10.5 sacks less. Newman and Jenkins? Got torched.

As for the Steelers they've been running a 3-4 probably longer than any team in football and they know what to look for.

As far as their corners? late 2nd rounder and late 4th rounder as starters...but apparently you can't find dbs late that play well?

And if you want to dissect the linebackers more - Farrior and Timmons were both first round top 15 picks. James Harrison is a rare player that fell through the cracks. How many top players at a position are undrafted free agents? Tom Brady was a 6th round pick...should we wait til the 6th round to select quarterbacks now?

It USED to be easier to find mid round guys to develop. Not as easy anymore with so many teams using the 3-4 D.

And the argument here isn't so much what position is easier to find better players at later in the draft...it's Prince vs Robert Quinn. Quinn's talent hasn't even scratched the surface yet.

I'm tired of this team not having a pass rush.

Why was it that Dallas's Defense was better in '09 (ranked #9) then in '10 (ranked #23)? Well Newman showed his age and had a terrible year. Mike Jenkins who was a Pro-Bowler in '09, had a very down year and pretty much gave up midway through the year. Yet Anthony Spencer only had a sack more in '09, and Ware actually 4 more this year then in '09. So there sack production was down in '09, yet there CB play was excellent and they had a high ranking Defense. 2010, Ware has 4 more sacks, Spencer had 1 less, but there CB sucked and their overall Defense was near the bottom of the NFL.

Just to add more stats: Spencer was 7th in the NFL in QB Hurries, Ware was 12th. So why with all this great pressure that Dallas had on the QB, were they so bad? CB play was horrid.

By the way, your arguement that Farrior and Timmons of Pitt were Top 15 picks......they are ILB (Farrior has had tops 6.5 sacks in a season, and Timmons has had 7 in a season) so there Top 15 picks aren't the ones getting sacks. The sacks come from their Undrafted and 2nd Round picks. Which shows you can find sack specialists later in the draft.

Its still easy to find OLBs. Most colleges use smaller, leaner DEs now, that transition into 3-4 OLBs. Tamba Hali, Cameron Wake, Shaun Phillips, James Harrison, Woodley, Cliff Avril, Marcus Benard were all among the Top 32 sack leaders this year, and none of those names was a 1st round pick. Shows you can find College DEs to convert to OLB.

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

Our pass rush sucks

Our secondary is bad

One corner does not make the whole secondary start covering better.

One pass rusher makes the whole secondary better.

If a corner blankets the other teams receiver that team still has several passing options left and if the QB has time to find them(no pass rush would do that) they will get yards out of hte play.

If a pass rusher gets to the QB for a sack/fumble/or just a hurry it doesn't matter how well ANY of the corners are covering.

If the ball doesn't come out of the QB's hand or comes out without any accuracy you just ruined a play.

We have ignored our pass rush for years hoping the guys we have on the team will step up. It hasn't happened yet and it has to be fixed.

As for the idea that good corners don't get drafted later in the draft...how do you figure? Who were the Packer corners this year?Tramon Williams and Sam Shields? Both undrafted.

Want to point out Charles Woodson? They signed him as a free agent.

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

i get it

my view is tha at most a player gets maybe what 2 sacks a game and 5 presuures a game at most

cb have the ability to shut down the best wr for maybe 30 plays and were taking about maybe 35 passing plays a game

and like i said how many elite vn have they been in past 10 year?

revis 1st round pick
namdi 1st round pick
woodson 1st round pick
baily 1st round pick
darrel green 1st round pick
deion sanders 1at sound pick
rod woodson 1st round pick




demarcus ware 1st round
dumweville 4th round
james harrison UDFA
michael strahan 2nd round
lomarr woodly 2nd round
jared allen 4th round
julius peppers 1st round
tamba hali 2nd round
clay matthews 1st round

I agree with you 100%, 49ersalldaway126. Your thought process seems to be like mine. You can find Elite Sack Artists anywhere in the Draft. Its way, way harder to find an Elite Shut-Down CB though.

Originally posted by genus49:


I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

. . .

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

Don't be shocked. You've been on the 'zone long enough to know better.

QB and pass rusher. Really probably the two most important positions on the team. Offense and defense respectively. (QB way more important than the other.) Strangely, the two positions that the Niners have assiduously avoided addressing adequately for the last five years. Falls back on the FO/coaches. Any surprise the Niners have been bottom dwellers?

I'm with those who believe that Quinn should be the choice. He's bigger, has the same first step and has more moves than the other guy. Size matters.

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by genus49:


I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

. . .

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

Don't be shocked. You've been on the 'zone long enough to know better.

QB and pass rusher. Really probably the two most important positions on the team. Offense and defense respectively. (QB way more important than the other.) Strangely, the two positions that the Niners have assiduously avoided addressing adequately for the last five years. Falls back on the FO/coaches. Any surprise the Niners have been bottom dwellers?

I'm with those who believe that Quinn should be the choice. He's bigger, has the same first step and has more moves than the other guy. Size matters.

You share the same philosophy as Scot McCloughan.......and that's not a compliment.

Good arguments here for a number of needs. The trick is to find the right guys, no matter the round. The 1st round is one guy, the 9ers need several; so the key is to know who they can get in the 2nd, 3rd, etc. If Baalke has his eye on a pass rusher who may be available in the third, fine. If he thinks there are CBs to be had in the second or third, then Quinn would be much more preferable.

Most GMs set their boards based on where their needs will likely be available, so they can address as many as posible. One of the knocks on going BPA is that you are letting the decisions of others rule your day, rather than aggressively going for the players you need. This year, there seem to be CBs all through the first three rounds who are very good. Very odd year in that regard. Front seven defenders are unusually strong in the first round.

Problem is i don't see Prince as that level of a corner.

And if corners were so easy to analyze then how did some of those guys drop so far?

Revis wasn't a top 10 pick. Aso was #31 or something like it if I recall.

If we're talking about Patrick Peterson I would agree with you but imo Quinn is a MUCH better prospect at a more important position.

You guys keep showing that you can take pass rushers later in the draft...well I can find corners who have been very good taken outside of the first round too.

Simple math really...more 3-4 teams = less pass rushers going later in the draft.

Nobody mentioned the Tom Brady comparison. Brady was a 6th round pick, Joe Montana was a 3rd rounder, Kurt Warner and Jeff Garcia were undrafted free agents...should teams not take QB in round 1 now?

Outside of Woodley and Dumervil what 3-4 OLB were drafted outside of the first round in the last 5 years are any good? And Dumervil fell because he was really small.

You take the guy who is more talented and can give you more. That's Quinn.

Originally posted by Travisty13:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by genus49:


I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

. . .

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

Don't be shocked. You've been on the 'zone long enough to know better.

QB and pass rusher. Really probably the two most important positions on the team. Offense and defense respectively. (QB way more important than the other.) Strangely, the two positions that the Niners have assiduously avoided addressing adequately for the last five years. Falls back on the FO/coaches. Any surprise the Niners have been bottom dwellers?

I'm with those who believe that Quinn should be the choice. He's bigger, has the same first step and has more moves than the other guy. Size matters.

You share the same philosophy as Scot McCloughan.......and that's not a compliment.

That was a really low blow.

I've been a big critic of McC. From before the time when others were singing his praises. You also I venture to say. I hated the fact that he completely ignored the swift, shifty types on offense. Or in the defensive backfield. He went for size, even if they sucked at changing direction.

But seriously. All other things being equal, size is an advantage. You wouldn't want a 200lb NT for example. For a DE/OLB the ablility to match up with Olinemen, while still having equal speed and more moves, is an advantage. I shouldn't be having to point that out.

What Scotty M did was take size for the fact a player had size.

We crossed off and passed by a lot of talented players in favor of size...but in Robert Quinn's case he has prototypical size and has excellent pass rush ability.

Anyone with a wrestling background and athletic ability like Robert possesses will do well in that department. It's about leverage, speed and strength. This guy has the first 2 in bunches and can easily improve the strength(not that he's weak as is either)

People keep bringing up him not playing football last year but that only does 2 things - it allows him to possibly be there for us to pick at #7 and it means he'll take a little longer to be a full time player.

His potential is scary. The biggest knock on him is inconsistency and imo that's more of a young guy and coaching issue. When you're surrounded by guys like Willis, Spikes, Justin Smith and coach Harbaugh the intensity and drive rubs off on people.

Quinn is a good kid who made a mistake and wants to make up for it. I say if he's there at #7 and Peterson is gone, let him make up for that mistake on this team.

Quote:
The San Francisco 49ers, owners of the seventh overall pick in this month's NFL draft, met with North Carolina defensive end Robert Quinn earlier this week, according to The Sacramento Bee.


NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock ranks Quinn as the sixth-best prospect and top-rated defensive end. Three of NFL.com's draft experts expect Quinn to go in the top ten.

Mayock said the former Tar Heel "has rare and elite skills" at his pro-day workout on March 31, when he ran a 4.59-second 40-yard dash, had a 33-inch vertical leap and a 10-foot-6 broad jump to go with his 24 bench-press reps.

"To me the bottom line is that what this kid does as well, or better, than anyone I’ve seen in the last couple of years is he’s got an ability to get up the field, bend, dip and get to the quarterback," Mayock said.

Quinn carries some questions after missing the 2010 season because of an NCAA suspension for accepting illegal benefits. He emerged as a playmaker during his sophomore season in 2009, leading the Atlantic Coast Conference in tackles for a loss with 19 and finishing second in the conference with 11 sacks.

The Niners, in the market for an elite pass rusher, also appear interested in Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller. Miller, widely considered the best linebacker in the draft, met with the team this past week, according to The Bee.

- NFL.com

I have a feeling he is our dude.

I really am not a fan. All his sacks came against inferior teams.

Originally posted by NickSh49:
I have a feeling he is our dude.

I hope you're right!