FCUK Robert Quinn

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by binary2nd:
So if it comes down to Quinn or Prince, are most in agreement that it should be Quinn? That's probably gonna be our two choices at #7 I'm guessing.

I started this thread, and obviously I really like Robert Quinn, but Peterson is the best player in this draft and I'll take Peterson easily, won't even wait and turn in my card.

That' great and everything but Prince is not Peterson.

haha yea...I misread. I think Binary was talking about Peterson. My bad. I will def. take Quinn over Prince. No questions asked.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by binary2nd:
So if it comes down to Quinn or Prince, are most in agreement that it should be Quinn? That's probably gonna be our two choices at #7 I'm guessing.

I started this thread, and obviously I really like Robert Quinn, but Peterson is the best player in this draft and I'll take Peterson easily, won't even wait and turn in my card.

That' great and everything but Prince is not Peterson.

haha yea...I misread. I think Binary was talking about Peterson. My bad. I will def. take Quinn over Prince. No questions asked.

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by binary2nd:
So if it comes down to Quinn or Prince, are most in agreement that it should be Quinn? That's probably gonna be our two choices at #7 I'm guessing.

I started this thread, and obviously I really like Robert Quinn, but Peterson is the best player in this draft and I'll take Peterson easily, won't even wait and turn in my card.

That' great and everything but Prince is not Peterson.

haha yea...I misread. I think Binary was talking about Peterson. My bad. I will def. take Quinn over Prince. No questions asked.

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

Prince over Quinn. My choice, and it's not even close.

peterson > quinn > prince

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
peterson > quinn > prince

peterson > quinn > prince > trade down

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

Our pass rush sucks

Our secondary is bad

One corner does not make the whole secondary start covering better.

One pass rusher makes the whole secondary better.

If a corner blankets the other teams receiver that team still has several passing options left and if the QB has time to find them(no pass rush would do that) they will get yards out of hte play.

If a pass rusher gets to the QB for a sack/fumble/or just a hurry it doesn't matter how well ANY of the corners are covering.

If the ball doesn't come out of the QB's hand or comes out without any accuracy you just ruined a play.

We have ignored our pass rush for years hoping the guys we have on the team will step up. It hasn't happened yet and it has to be fixed.

As for the idea that good corners don't get drafted later in the draft...how do you figure? Who were the Packer corners this year?Tramon Williams and Sam Shields? Both undrafted.

Want to point out Charles Woodson? They signed him as a free agent.

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by binary2nd:
So if it comes down to Quinn or Prince, are most in agreement that it should be Quinn? That's probably gonna be our two choices at #7 I'm guessing.

I started this thread, and obviously I really like Robert Quinn, but Peterson is the best player in this draft and I'll take Peterson easily, won't even wait and turn in my card.

That' great and everything but Prince is not Peterson.

haha yea...I misread. I think Binary was talking about Peterson. My bad. I will def. take Quinn over Prince. No questions asked.

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

Prince is a pretty good, but I think he is the 10-11th best player in the draft. If we're going to take Prince, I hope we drop down a few spots and pick up a draft pick. Quinn is a top 3 talent, and had he played last season - we'd not be having this discussion.

I'm not one of those who feel pass-rusher is more important than a CB. I think both are equally important. I never understand that sentiment that you can take a CB out of the game by not throwing to his side. If the QB can't throw to his top WR or one side of the field, it dramatically changes the game.

But, having said that - Quinn is a better player and we need a pass-rusher just as badly as CB. So, Quinn is an easy answer for me.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

Our pass rush sucks

Our secondary is bad

One corner does not make the whole secondary start covering better.

One pass rusher makes the whole secondary better.

If a corner blankets the other teams receiver that team still has several passing options left and if the QB has time to find them(no pass rush would do that) they will get yards out of hte play.

If a pass rusher gets to the QB for a sack/fumble/or just a hurry it doesn't matter how well ANY of the corners are covering.

If the ball doesn't come out of the QB's hand or comes out without any accuracy you just ruined a play.

We have ignored our pass rush for years hoping the guys we have on the team will step up. It hasn't happened yet and it has to be fixed.

As for the idea that good corners don't get drafted later in the draft...how do you figure? Who were the Packer corners this year?Tramon Williams and Sam Shields? Both undrafted.

Want to point out Charles Woodson? They signed him as a free agent.

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Ahmm...no it really doesn't.

Let's assume all things equal and both guys are elite players. Which means the pass rusher can rush the QB/sack him and the elite corner completely shuts down his side.

Pass rush wins as it effects the whole play. If you double/triple team him it opens up other guys to get to the QB.

An offense can simply plan and avoid throwing to the elite corner's side. What happens if the other guys are not nearly as good?

You think Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are that good?

Give me the pass rush any day of the week. There is no question that a solid pass rush screws up the passing game more than anything else.

I'm not saying a top corner doesn't help the pass rush but not as much as the other helps the secondary.

Look at Oakland. There were years they were getting torched in the secondary even though they had Aso back there. They just didn't throw to him but everthing else was open and the QB had time to find it.

Or to put it another way...even if you double team a pass rusher that gives your defense an advantage because someone will be unblocked. Do you expect 2 receivers to run the same route on the corner to give the same advantage?

Hell look at the Colts. Their defense is really not very good outside of their pass rush. If Freeney and Mathis were bums that secondary would be historically bad.

Nate Clements, Shawntae Spencer, Brown and the other guys are not terrible but they will get burned without a rush.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Ahmm...no it really doesn't.

Let's assume all things equal and both guys are elite players. Which means the pass rusher can rush the QB/sack him and the elite corner completely shuts down his side.

Pass rush wins as it effects the whole play. If you double/triple team him it opens up other guys to get to the QB.

An offense can simply plan and avoid throwing to the elite corner's side. What happens if the other guys are not nearly as good?

You think Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are that good?

Give me the pass rush any day of the week. There is no question that a solid pass rush screws up the passing game more than anything else.

I'm not saying a top corner doesn't help the pass rush but not as much as the other helps the secondary.

Look at Oakland. There were years they were getting torched in the secondary even though they had Aso back there. They just didn't throw to him but everthing else was open and the QB had time to find it.

Or to put it another way...even if you double team a pass rusher that gives your defense an advantage because someone will be unblocked. Do you expect 2 receivers to run the same route on the corner to give the same advantage?

Hell look at the Colts. Their defense is really not very good outside of their pass rush. If Freeney and Mathis were bums that secondary would be historically bad.

Nate Clements, Shawntae Spencer, Brown and the other guys are not terrible but they will get burned without a rush.

Look at Dallas, they had the Sack Leader of the NFL (D.Ware) and still had one of the worst Defenses. Its easier to find a great OLB then it is to find an great CB. Look at Pittsburgh. They have no OLB that's a first round pick, yet had the most Sacks in the NFL. Why? Because it's easier to find mid-round OLBs that will eventually develop into good pass-rushers.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I never understand this line of thought. One elite CB can definitely make your secondary better, and can make the pass-rushers look good - and vice versa. If a CB can cover the best WR, without safety help on top, it can severely hurt the offense for the entire game.

Just like a QB can throw to other options, an elite pass-rusher can be marginalized by employing double team to his side. It goes both ways.

Ahmm...no it really doesn't.

Let's assume all things equal and both guys are elite players. Which means the pass rusher can rush the QB/sack him and the elite corner completely shuts down his side.

Pass rush wins as it effects the whole play. If you double/triple team him it opens up other guys to get to the QB.

An offense can simply plan and avoid throwing to the elite corner's side. What happens if the other guys are not nearly as good?

You think Tramon Williams and Sam Shields are that good?

Give me the pass rush any day of the week. There is no question that a solid pass rush screws up the passing game more than anything else.

I'm not saying a top corner doesn't help the pass rush but not as much as the other helps the secondary.

Look at Oakland. There were years they were getting torched in the secondary even though they had Aso back there. They just didn't throw to him but everthing else was open and the QB had time to find it.

Or to put it another way...even if you double team a pass rusher that gives your defense an advantage because someone will be unblocked. Do you expect 2 receivers to run the same route on the corner to give the same advantage?

Hell look at the Colts. Their defense is really not very good outside of their pass rush. If Freeney and Mathis were bums that secondary would be historically bad.

Nate Clements, Shawntae Spencer, Brown and the other guys are not terrible but they will get burned without a rush.

I've to disagree again. It goes both ways. If a QB has to avoid the whole side of the field because of 1 player, it makes life very tough for any offense to function in the passing game. Also, Oakland had one of the best secondaries for couple of years...they were getting gashed in the running game. Indy has been getting hammered by other team's offense for years. It was the play of Bob Sanders which led them to superbowl win that year.

Sure, if the other CB isn't very good - the elite CB won't be as effective. But, that's no different than having mediocre rusher opposite an elite rusher. You can take out an elite rusher if you don't have much on the other side. That mediocre rusher wasn't winning 1-on-1 battles before, and won't win now that there is an elite rusher on the other side.

Which is why, you need one elite and one good rusher opposite him to keep other team from taking out your elite rusher.

Both are equally important to each other. If you don't have elite rushers, you're CB have work extra hard. If your CBs can't cover - the QB can get rid of the ball before the rusher gets close. This is why football is a complete team sport.

Originally posted by Travisty13:


Look at Dallas, they had the Sack Leader of the NFL (D.Ware) and still had one of the worst Defenses. Its easier to find a great OLB then it is to find an great CB. Look at Pittsburgh. They have no OLB that's a first round pick, yet had the most Sacks in the NFL. Why? Because it's easier to find mid-round OLBs that will eventually develop into good pass-rushers.

Dallas also has Terrence Newman and Mike Jenkins...so why aren't they destroying it out there?

I never claimed one player will make a team a powerhouse but if you had to have one or the other the pass rusher provides more impact.

Still disagree? Just use Dallas as a perfect example. Ware still put up a monster season despite nobody else helping out. Next guy had 10.5 sacks less. Newman and Jenkins? Got torched.

As for the Steelers they've been running a 3-4 probably longer than any team in football and they know what to look for.

As far as their corners? late 2nd rounder and late 4th rounder as starters...but apparently you can't find dbs late that play well?

And if you want to dissect the linebackers more - Farrior and Timmons were both first round top 15 picks. James Harrison is a rare player that fell through the cracks. How many top players at a position are undrafted free agents? Tom Brady was a 6th round pick...should we wait til the 6th round to select quarterbacks now?

It USED to be easier to find mid round guys to develop. Not as easy anymore with so many teams using the 3-4 D.

And the argument here isn't so much what position is easier to find better players at later in the draft...it's Prince vs Robert Quinn. Quinn's talent hasn't even scratched the surface yet.

I'm tired of this team not having a pass rush.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

I've to disagree again. It goes both ways. If a QB has to avoid the whole side of the field because of 1 player, it makes life very tough for any offense to function in the passing game. Also, Oakland had one of the best secondaries for couple of years...they were getting gashed in the running game. Indy has been getting hammered by other team's offense for years. It was the play of Bob Sanders which led them to superbowl win that year.

Sure, if the other CB isn't very good - the elite CB won't be as effective. But, that's no different than having mediocre rusher opposite an elite rusher. You can take out an elite rusher if you don't have much on the other side. That mediocre rusher wasn't winning 1-on-1 battles before, and won't win now that there is an elite rusher on the other side.

Which is why, you need one elite and one good rusher opposite him to keep other team from taking out your elite rusher.

Both are equally important to each other. If you don't have elite rushers, you're CB have work extra hard. If your CBs can't cover - the QB can get rid of the ball before the rusher gets close. This is why football is a complete team sport.

You can disagree all you want, it doesn't make you right.

Throwing to one side of the field is a lot better for an offense than being sacked or pressured into bad throws to ALL sides of the field.

How is this even an argument? Coverage sacks are incredibly rare and when they happen the whole secondary needs to do their job, not just one guy. Your logic is that we need to draft corner early because our secondary sucks so much...well what are the other sucky players doing while Prince does his job?

And just because everyone wanted to run against Oakland doesn't make their secondary any good. It's just easier to run for 200+ yards a game when you want to win a game than throw the ball.

As for Bob Sanders being a big reason for Colts secondary success, that's straight up laughable. Bob Sanders is pretty much a linebacker playing safety. His best asset was bringing the wood and laying people out. His pass coverage really wasn't that good. Not to mention where has he been the last few years? It's been all Freeney and Mathis.

Football is a team sport but your analysis is off. A good pass rusher can be in the QB's face very quickly, most corners can stay with their guy for a brief period of time. You make it sound like our guys just fall down once the ball is snapped and the receivers are running around completely free.

If anything our secondary was so terrible because we were so soft on defense, no rushing and guys constantly playing off. Spencer and Clements are better corners than teams who looked much better.

It's almost like you're want a corner just because you think we need one so much.

FWIW :

Quote:
Former NFL general manager Charlie Casserly, now an analyst on NFL Network, believes firmly that a good pass rusher outweighs a good cornerback.

“He gives you a chance to affect the game more than a corner does,” Casserly said in a teleconference today. “I think with a corner you can protect him with coverages, but you certainly can’t manufacture a pass rush with a player. You have to manufacture it with blitzing, and that’s taking more chances. So if it’s an even situation, to me I’d (draft) the pass rusher.”

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

for me it can go either way im slightly leading towards prince becsue our secondary is autrocious and history has shown that they are few if any elite or even good CB taken after first round

pass rushers have been shown to be found in every round in fact most of the elite ones come late in draft

I'm straight up SHOCKED how many people don't grasp a simple concept...

Our pass rush sucks

Our secondary is bad

One corner does not make the whole secondary start covering better.

One pass rusher makes the whole secondary better.

If a corner blankets the other teams receiver that team still has several passing options left and if the QB has time to find them(no pass rush would do that) they will get yards out of hte play.

If a pass rusher gets to the QB for a sack/fumble/or just a hurry it doesn't matter how well ANY of the corners are covering.

If the ball doesn't come out of the QB's hand or comes out without any accuracy you just ruined a play.

We have ignored our pass rush for years hoping the guys we have on the team will step up. It hasn't happened yet and it has to be fixed.

As for the idea that good corners don't get drafted later in the draft...how do you figure? Who were the Packer corners this year?Tramon Williams and Sam Shields? Both undrafted.

Want to point out Charles Woodson? They signed him as a free agent.

Prince will be a solid player but without a pass rush he will be torched. Last year we weren't able to generate much pressure at all, the year before we did it with smoke and mirrors but we did it...no surprise the SAME players in our secondary looked way worse this year.

i get it

my view is tha at most a player gets maybe what 2 sacks a game and 5 presuures a game at most

cb have the ability to shut down the best wr for maybe 30 plays and were taking about maybe 35 passing plays a game

and like i said how many elite vn have they been in past 10 year?

revis 1st round pick
namdi 1st round pick
woodson 1st round pick
baily 1st round pick
darrel green 1st round pick
deion sanders 1at sound pick
rod woodson 1st round pick




demarcus ware 1st round
dumweville 4th round
james harrison UDFA
michael strahan 2nd round
lomarr woodly 2nd round
jared allen 4th round
julius peppers 1st round
tamba hali 2nd round
clay matthews 1st round