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Would You Guys Be Happy With #13 Haden #17 Thomas?

There are no guarentees in the draft. Everybody assumes that a player will be a P Willis or Orlando Pace...simply because they become enamored with them.

Anyway, a better offense keeps the D off the field and rested, no matter how good your DB is, if your D linemen and linebackers are tired, the other teams QB will have all day. Not only that but if the opponent has a good running game, its even worse, then your DB got to support the run and then bam-they go for the bomb if they do creep up, if not they continue to stuff'em down the throat.

Field position and the ability to score another 7 points average will do more wonders for the defense.

At any rate diversity is the key, and making the most of our picks no OT tradeback one of the picks to get more so that we can move and be more flexiable with who want and can get - we meaning not yo or I but the coaching and personnel people.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by joey82:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by joey82:
No that would be awful.

Getting one would be ok although I don't think we necessarily need to take a DB in the first.

If you can't block it doesn't matter how scary your secondary is.

I'm sorry but what does the offensive line have to do with the secondary..which plays defense?

And people who think Haden sucks must've not watched him play or are hung up on his combine numbers. The guy will be a stud. No question about it.


If your offensive line can't block then you can't throw or run the ball, therefore you can't score points to win games. Heck remember how many three and outs we had on offense last year. Games are won and lost in the trenches. Having a strong secondary is nice but if we can't protect the passer or open up holes in the running game we are screwed. OL is obviously the biggest need not addressing that in FA or in the first round would be a big mistake.

While I agree with you that we desperately need to fix the RT position a shutdown corner is a lot more valuable than a RT.

It's not like we can't find a RT if we don't take one in the first round...sure you want to grab the best player at the position and usually you'd like to think those come from the first round but if the top guys are gone I'd be thrilled with Haden and look at RT later.

You make it sound like we'd be out there playing with nobody at RT. The guys we have may not be great options but you can hide a RT and help him out with a tight end. Plus I'm excited about our coaching and think the line will improve overall.

You need to put up points but if you can shut out the other team you don't need to be perfect on offense. Hell with the secondary we could have with this draft I would imagine a nice big spike in turnovers.

Sure a shutdown corner is worth more than a RT but how many shutdown corners are there in the league less than 10 easily. Nate Clemens is a shutdown corner and while two is nice it isn't necessary.

Even the best corners can't cover forever, a good pass rush is often more valuable than a better players in the secondary. The offensive line needs to improve and while you can find tackles later in the draft the same could be said for any position. While a good defense can put an offense in good position to score points a good offense can keep a defense fresh and keep an explosive opponents off the field.

The big issue isn't drafting a DB but drafting two. Take a T and a DB and I am fine with that, but spending both first round picks on a DB is overkill, heck I would rather have a pass rusher and a DB over two DBs in the first. Besides the fact that we are very likely to take a DB with return skills in the first 3 rounds to address our KR/PR issues. That would be 3 of our first 5 picks on the secondary. I really don't think we are going to use a first round pick/talent/contract on a KR/PR unless they can be a gamebreaker and the only player that fits that description is Spiller.
just my opinion, but Haden is too slow, Thomas is too small. Neither for me.
Originally posted by joey82:
No that would be awful.

Getting one would be ok although I don't think we necessarily need to take a DB in the first.

If you can't block it doesn't matter how scary your secondary is.

Awful? Are you kidding me? Do you realize that we dont have enough quality DBs to run a dime package right now? Our secondary is not the same as last season. We have lost players to FA and injury.

We certainly need OL help. Specifically RT and another OG, positions that should be addressed early. But Haden and Thomas are waaaay too good at positions of serious need to pass up. RT can be found in Rd2 or via a trade, if the 3 tackles are gone. I would pass on Anthony Davis for these two guys. This isnt awful, this would give us the premier secondary in the league with an already very good defense.
If Okung, Bulaga, Williams & Davis are all gone at #13, then I am cool with Haden. If we go Haden at #13, then Iupati is the pick at #17. If Iupati is gone at #17 and Thomas is available, then we take Thomas at #17.

That is how i see it.
Originally posted by amigoj49:
just my opinion, but Haden is too slow, Thomas is too small. Neither for me.

Haden doesn't play slow. Do you guys actually watch him PLAY? Or just hang your assessment of the guy on what he ran at the combine?
Originally posted by calbear:
Originally posted by joey82:
No that would be awful.

Getting one would be ok although I don't think we necessarily need to take a DB in the first.

If you can't block it doesn't matter how scary your secondary is.

Awful? Are you kidding me? Do you realize that we dont have enough quality DBs to run a dime package right now? Our secondary is not the same as last season. We have lost players to FA and injury.

We certainly need OL help. Specifically RT and another OG, positions that should be addressed early. But Haden and Thomas are waaaay too good at positions of serious need to pass up. RT can be found in Rd2 or via a trade, if the 3 tackles are gone. I would pass on Anthony Davis for these two guys. This isnt awful, this would give us the premier secondary in the league with an already very good defense.

That is assuming that both Haden and Thomas are great players, it is pretty hard for a rookie DB to come in and make a significant impact. It is more uncommon than common.

Our pass rush isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our OL isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our Secondary isn't great but it isn't our biggest weakness either. We are already going to take at least one DB/KR/PR so if we did take Haden and Thomas you are looking at 3 of our first 5 picks on the secondary which is ridiculous.

Take one DB in the first if there is value but to ignore both DE/OLB and OL in the first is a big mistake. The only outcome that would make me happy with no OL or OLB/DE in the first is a trade for another first round pick next year or Spiller + a DB.

I would be shocked if we double up at any position with both of our firsts with the exception of OL.
Originally posted by joey82:
Originally posted by calbear:
Originally posted by joey82:
No that would be awful.

Getting one would be ok although I don't think we necessarily need to take a DB in the first.

If you can't block it doesn't matter how scary your secondary is.

Awful? Are you kidding me? Do you realize that we dont have enough quality DBs to run a dime package right now? Our secondary is not the same as last season. We have lost players to FA and injury.

We certainly need OL help. Specifically RT and another OG, positions that should be addressed early. But Haden and Thomas are waaaay too good at positions of serious need to pass up. RT can be found in Rd2 or via a trade, if the 3 tackles are gone. I would pass on Anthony Davis for these two guys. This isnt awful, this would give us the premier secondary in the league with an already very good defense.

That is assuming that both Haden and Thomas are great players, it is pretty hard for a rookie DB to come in and make a significant impact. It is more uncommon than common.

Our pass rush isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our OL isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our Secondary isn't great but it isn't our biggest weakness either. We are already going to take at least one DB/KR/PR so if we did take Haden and Thomas you are looking at 3 of our first 5 picks on the secondary which is ridiculous.

Take one DB in the first if there is value but to ignore both DE/OLB and OL in the first is a big mistake. The only outcome that would make me happy with no OL or OLB/DE in the first is a trade for another first round pick next year or Spiller + a DB.

I would be shocked if we double up at any position with both of our firsts with the exception of OL.

You're hung up on something which is our biggest need which is RT. What you're failing to realize though is this team has holes in other places and both of these players upgrade our team by adding very good prospects.

Joe Haden is by far the best corner in this draft despite what some people hung up on his 40 time are saying. He's proven it for 3 years at a big time school and his play speaks more volume than a workout in shorts.

Earl Thomas has also played for a big school and is only the #2 safety in this class because of Eric Berry. The guy would make a fantastic FS allowing us to move Dashon Goldson over to SS a position which is a better fit for him.

Now nobody is saying that these guys will come out and look like Deion Sanders and Ed Reed out there right off the bat but they will certainly help the team.

Nate Clements is a question mark. Hell he was benched in his last game before hurting himself. I still think he's a good corner but he's a question mark beyond next season. Why not get his backup in place right now so when he leaves we don't have to do a panic move like we seem to be doing with RT.

I agree our pass rush isn't great. I would be just as happy seeing us draft Brandon Graham or Jerry Hughes(actually more so) but the fact is both Haden and Thomas are really good players who could start sooner rather than later at positions that help the team in the long run. We could look at OLB/DE later in the draft same way we can look for a RT.

I want us to spend our first 2 picks on RT and OLB/DE but if the value isn't there I don't want us walking away with Bruce Campbell at 13 just because we neet an OT. or Charles Brown at #17.

Personally I doubt either player will be available at the respective picks so its a moot point.

Oh and to address our PR/KR position who said it has to be a DB? Why not a Jacoby Ford, Dexter McCluster, Mardy Gilyard, Leroy Vann or other WR/RB/KR/PR types?
Originally posted by amigoj49:
just my opinion, but Haden is too slow, Thomas is too small. Neither for me.

"Mired by a back sprain and taught to come out of a poor stance, Haden ran a 4.57 in Indianapolis. At Florida's Pro Day, Haden ran a 4.43 on a wet surface, which equates to a 4.38 on a normal track. "


You clearly didn't watch the guy play football. If you have a problem with his technique or discipline or whatever...then address that in an intelligent manner, but looking at a list of 40 times from the combine is just plain asinine
No this is not a good idea, if we improve the offensive line and have less three and outs, out defense which is already good will play better. Then if you want you can throw in a bps defensive player at 13th or 17th . Then get a killer pr/kr and you get better field placement and you score more and that will help out the defense.
.

[ Edited by BobbyDrake on Apr 8, 2010 at 08:43:18 ]
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I won't be happy with any draft that doesn't have us picking an OT in the first round.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by joey82:
Originally posted by calbear:
Originally posted by joey82:
No that would be awful.

Getting one would be ok although I don't think we necessarily need to take a DB in the first.

If you can't block it doesn't matter how scary your secondary is.

Awful? Are you kidding me? Do you realize that we dont have enough quality DBs to run a dime package right now? Our secondary is not the same as last season. We have lost players to FA and injury.

We certainly need OL help. Specifically RT and another OG, positions that should be addressed early. But Haden and Thomas are waaaay too good at positions of serious need to pass up. RT can be found in Rd2 or via a trade, if the 3 tackles are gone. I would pass on Anthony Davis for these two guys. This isnt awful, this would give us the premier secondary in the league with an already very good defense.

That is assuming that both Haden and Thomas are great players, it is pretty hard for a rookie DB to come in and make a significant impact. It is more uncommon than common.

Our pass rush isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our OL isn't very good it needs to be addressed. Our Secondary isn't great but it isn't our biggest weakness either. We are already going to take at least one DB/KR/PR so if we did take Haden and Thomas you are looking at 3 of our first 5 picks on the secondary which is ridiculous.

Take one DB in the first if there is value but to ignore both DE/OLB and OL in the first is a big mistake. The only outcome that would make me happy with no OL or OLB/DE in the first is a trade for another first round pick next year or Spiller + a DB.

I would be shocked if we double up at any position with both of our firsts with the exception of OL.

You're hung up on something which is our biggest need which is RT. What you're failing to realize though is this team has holes in other places and both of these players upgrade our team by adding very good prospects.

Joe Haden is by far the best corner in this draft despite what some people hung up on his 40 time are saying. He's proven it for 3 years at a big time school and his play speaks more volume than a workout in shorts.

Earl Thomas has also played for a big school and is only the #2 safety in this class because of Eric Berry. The guy would make a fantastic FS allowing us to move Dashon Goldson over to SS a position which is a better fit for him.

Now nobody is saying that these guys will come out and look like Deion Sanders and Ed Reed out there right off the bat but they will certainly help the team.

Nate Clements is a question mark. Hell he was benched in his last game before hurting himself. I still think he's a good corner but he's a question mark beyond next season. Why not get his backup in place right now so when he leaves we don't have to do a panic move like we seem to be doing with RT.

I agree our pass rush isn't great. I would be just as happy seeing us draft Brandon Graham or Jerry Hughes(actually more so) but the fact is both Haden and Thomas are really good players who could start sooner rather than later at positions that help the team in the long run. We could look at OLB/DE later in the draft same way we can look for a RT.

I want us to spend our first 2 picks on RT and OLB/DE but if the value isn't there I don't want us walking away with Bruce Campbell at 13 just because we neet an OT. or Charles Brown at #17.

Personally I doubt either player will be available at the respective picks so its a moot point.

Oh and to address our PR/KR position who said it has to be a DB? Why not a Jacoby Ford, Dexter McCluster, Mardy Gilyard, Leroy Vann or other WR/RB/KR/PR types?

Who says Charles Brown at 17 isn't good value or that Earl Thomas is? It is just a matter of opinion. You say that we could address RT and OLB in the 2nd and 3rd and I say there will be fine DBs in the 2nd and 3rd for us to choose from. To think that the only value at our picks is at DB is a little short sighted. Do you guys honestly think it is reallistic for us and that our front office would draft two DBs in the first?

As for your list of players Ford is tiny and been arrested McCluster will almost certanly be gone before our 2nd and Gilyard likely gone too. The reason to go with a DB is that it kills two birds with one pick. We can get a nickle/dime CB and a returner. Which is more valuable to our roster slots then someone who wouldn't be very likley to see the field if they were a RB or WR.

If we went two DBs we are likely looking at yet another season where we have no pass protection, Gore isn't as effective as he could be, sparadic pass rushing and another year of missing the playoffs.
Originally posted by amigoj49:
just my opinion, but Haden is too slow, Thomas is too small. Neither for me.

Ed Reed is 5'11" and Troy Polamalu is 5'10" while Thomas is 5'10 1/4" so it's really not that big of a deal.
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Haden is not a bad choice as CB however I do not see him as an elite CB he has a lower ceiling than say Karl Wilson so the value isnt there imo I'd rather choose a CB later in the draft selecting an OL in the 1st round is a must the way I see it even if it means trading down . I am not convinced with Earl Thomas as a 1st rounder either I believe Morgan Burnett will be a better FS, Thomas will likely convert to CB