Lebron vs. His Airness

Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:

Originally posted by Frisco69ers:

the conversation should be Kobe vs Lebron, no one touches MJ

Yup. A couple years ago, Kobe had a chance to be up there with Jordan, but injuries and lack of a good team, pretty much put an end to that. Still, Lebron hasn't accomplished the things Kobe has, or other greats of the past have either. When it's all said and done, if he stays healthy and keeps winning, he'll pass Kobe, Duncan, Magic, Hakeem, and possibly even MJ, but he ain't there yet.

Kobe never had a chance to be up there with Jordan and the gap between Lebron and Kobe is far greater than the gap between Lebron and Jordan.

Jordan was better at every aspect of the game than Kobe other than jump shooting. He was a better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, had way more endurance (actually played defense), better defender, and was actually clutch. Kobe is a ball hog at the end of games who has terrible FG %'s on last shot attempts and won 3 of his rings as the 2nd best player on his team.

Kobe and Lebron should not be compared ever. Jordan > Lebron > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Wade (barely). Wade is much closer to Kobe than Kobe is to Lebron.

Kobe is the most overrated player of all time IMO (still the second best SG of all time but the Jordan and Lebron comparisons are absurd). Kobe's 1st team defensive awards are an absolute joke to the game (popularity contest).

MJ had more spring than Kobe. The Doberman Defense with Pippin could take any offense out for the count. I was one of Lebron's biggest detractors when he was with the Heat. His move back to Cleveland (have you been to Cleveland?) showed me something. I'm rooting for him now. This is his 5th straight final. Has anyone on the Warriors been to one? He's in a position, with a Championship, to be the unquestioned greatest of his generation and maybe getting a little closer to MJ.

Originally posted by RishikeshA:
MJ had more spring than Kobe. The Doberman Defense with Pippin could take any offense out for the count. I was one of Lebron's biggest detractors when he was with the Heat. His move back to Cleveland (have you been to Cleveland?) showed me something. I'm rooting for him now. This is his 5th straight final. Has anyone on the Warriors been to one? He's in a position, with a Championship, to be the unquestioned greatest of his generation and maybe getting a little closer to MJ.

Had he not went to MIA and surrounded himself by Riley and Wade he would never have grown up and gotten the mental toughness he needed to become a champion. He needed MIA just as they needed him. Only now has he become the best once he won it all. Wade and Riley knew how to win LBJ didn't. Now he knows how and this is why others are flocking to lowly CLE. Make no mistake LBJ went home because CLE had loafed up on young cheap talent by getting three of four first overall picks uncannily. Had MIA won last year he is still in MIA. He left CLE as a free agent erring only with the press conference some would say. He left MIA after he got from them what he wanted. He saw a declining Wade and MIA had sold out future picks to get him there initially so LeBron bailed for greener pastures. I see nothing wrong with lebron leaving in either situation but I see the selfish motives and I can't blame him from a pure career achievement standpoint. He was a free agent and made his choice but I found nothing heroic about it. It will be heroic if he brings a chip to CLE though but I'm pulling for the Bay. Screw CLE their turncoat fans and the turncoat owner. I will never forget the lack of class they showed for a FA that gave them everything he had his first stint there. I've heard of being scorned but have some class in how you handle things. They really cut up when he left and I swore to never root for Dan Gilbert ever again

I think Jordan is obviously better but not because he was 6-0 in NBA finals. That's a silly stat.

Did Jordan play only 6 seasons and never lost in the post season?

I'd rather lose in the Finals a couple times than lose in the 1st round couple times. Getting knocked out at the first stage is a lot worse if you're a competitor, IMHO.

Originally posted by 4ML:
I think Jordan is obviously better but not because he was 6-0 in NBA finals. That's a silly stat.

Did Jordan play only 6 seasons and never lost in the post season?

I'd rather lose in the Finals a couple times than lose in the 1st round couple times. Getting knocked out at the first stage is a lot worse if you're a competitor, IMHO.

The game was rough back then..not all the offense as it is now...but what if he stayed the two Retirement years and won 8 in a row !

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by 4ML:

I think Jordan is obviously better but not because he was 6-0 in NBA finals. That's a silly stat.

Did Jordan play only 6 seasons and never lost in the post season?

I'd rather lose in the Finals a couple times than lose in the 1st round couple times. Getting knocked out at the first stage is a lot worse if you're a competitor, IMHO.

The game was rough back then..not all the offense as it is now...but what if he stayed the two Retirement years and won 8 in a row !

But he didn't win 8 in a row and he did come back and lost in the 2nd round (something ppl forget to mention) and then had a 3 peat.

If Lebron left the game for couple years when he was 30 - ppl would be calling him soft and weak.

The experts on TV said Lebron should be disqualified from MVP race this year because he took 2 weeks off.

If Jordan played in this 24-7 hour TV and social media - ppl would be disqualifying him from the topic of greatest ever for taking couple years off.

And game was diluted in the 90s. It was the expansion era. Too many players who shouldn't be playing in the NBA were on the rosters and playing on a daily basis.

Jordan has so much more hand eye coordination then LeBron it's not even funny. LeBron can't even go up off two feet without looking uncoordinated. He's lucky that he's bigger, stronger, and faster than most.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Kobe never had a chance to be up there with Jordan and the gap between Lebron and Kobe is far greater than the gap between Lebron and Jordan.

Jordan was better at every aspect of the game than Kobe other than jump shooting. He was a better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, had way more endurance (actually played defense), better defender, and was actually clutch. Kobe is a ball hog at the end of games who has terrible FG %'s on last shot attempts and won 3 of his rings as the 2nd best player on his team.

Kobe and Lebron should not be compared ever. Jordan > Lebron > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Wade (barely). Wade is much closer to Kobe than Kobe is to Lebron.

Kobe is the most overrated player of all time IMO (still the second best SG of all time but the Jordan and Lebron comparisons are absurd). Kobe's 1st team defensive awards are an absolute joke to the game (popularity contest).

lol at most of this post. so he's the most overrated player of all time, but you still have him ranked as the 2nd best SG? and btw, the coaches vote for 1st team accolades, not the fans or other players, so it wasn't no popularity contest. (kobe was a great defender in his prime)

and wade is closer to kobe? dwayne wade is like 200th on the all time scoring list...kobe is 6th. add to that the championships, and career longevity he's had compared to wade, i'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion.

Originally posted by TheHYDE49er:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Kobe never had a chance to be up there with Jordan and the gap between Lebron and Kobe is far greater than the gap between Lebron and Jordan.

Jordan was better at every aspect of the game than Kobe other than jump shooting. He was a better athlete, better passer, better rebounder, had way more endurance (actually played defense), better defender, and was actually clutch. Kobe is a ball hog at the end of games who has terrible FG %'s on last shot attempts and won 3 of his rings as the 2nd best player on his team.

Kobe and Lebron should not be compared ever. Jordan > Lebron > Duncan = Shaq > Kobe > Wade (barely). Wade is much closer to Kobe than Kobe is to Lebron.

Kobe is the most overrated player of all time IMO (still the second best SG of all time but the Jordan and Lebron comparisons are absurd). Kobe's 1st team defensive awards are an absolute joke to the game (popularity contest).

lol at most of this post. so he's the most overrated player of all time, but you still have him ranked as the 2nd best SG? and btw, the coaches vote for 1st team accolades, not the fans or other players, so it wasn't no popularity contest. (kobe was a great defender in his prime)

and wade is closer to kobe? dwayne wade is like 200th on the all time scoring list...kobe is 6th. add to that the championships, and career longevity he's had compared to wade, i'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion.

QFT. The Wade to Kobe comparison is laughable. I am a huge Wade fan and he is no where close to Kobe in terms of accolades, championships, statistics, peak performance and longevity.

MJ VS Bron conversation....

Kobe isn't a part of it anymore

Tim Duncan in his prime would smoke MJ, Lebron, and Kobe in their primes in a game of 1 on 1.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
QFT. The Wade to Kobe comparison is laughable. I am a huge Wade fan and he is no where close to Kobe in terms of accolades, championships, statistics, peak performance and longevity.

Accolades are all popularity contests - coaches are fans too and a lot of aging superstars get voted on first teams because of their popularity. Anyone who thinks Kobe has been one of the best defensive SG's in the league in the past 5 years is blinded by fanhood or doesn't understand the game. The only thing Wade doesn't have is Kobe's longevity. Statistically, they are pretty similar. Wade has better career PER and WS/48 numbers even though they dipped playing with Lebron which was not a great fit (Wade had to sacrifice a lot of his offense because they were so similar and Lebron was basically a better version of Wade at that point in their careers).

Championships are 5-3 in favor of Kobe, but they each have one championship as the best player on their team. Wade's 2005-2006 playoff run was more impressive than Kobe's 2008-2009 playoff run where Gasol was a solid sidekick and accumulated 4.3 win shares himself. Peak performance could go either way depending on how you measure it. Wade had the more impressive single season - his 2005-2006 season trumps any of Kobe's seasons. Kobe has the more impressive single game obviously with 81 points.

Kobe should be considered the better player, but this debate is a lot closer than Kobe vs. Lebron or Kobe vs. Jordan. Lebron could retire today and he would go down as the better player. He passed Kobe in win shares this year which I find hilarious. Lebron is even further ahead in BPM (box plus/minus) and VORP (value above replacement player). Wade is even ahead of Kobe in career BPM, which penalizes Kobe for not putting any effort in on defense and doesn't reward volume shooters who don't score efficiently.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Accolades are all popularity contests - coaches are fans too and a lot of aging superstars get voted on first teams because of their popularity. Anyone who thinks Kobe has been one of the best defensive SG's in the league in the past 5 years is blinded by fanhood or doesn't understand the game. The only thing Wade doesn't have is Kobe's longevity. Statistically, they are pretty similar. Wade has better career PER and WS/48 numbers even though they dipped playing with Lebron which was not a great fit (Wade had to sacrifice a lot of his offense because they were so similar and Lebron was basically a better version of Wade at that point in their careers).

Championships are 5-3 in favor of Kobe, but they each have one championship as the best player on their team. Wade's 2005-2006 playoff run was more impressive than Kobe's 2008-2009 playoff run where Gasol was a solid sidekick and accumulated 4.3 win shares himself. Peak performance could go either way depending on how you measure it. Wade had the more impressive single season - his 2005-2006 season trumps any of Kobe's seasons. Kobe has the more impressive single game obviously with 81 points.

Kobe should be considered the better player, but this debate is a lot closer than Kobe vs. Lebron or Kobe vs. Jordan. Lebron could retire today and he would go down as the better player. He passed Kobe in win shares this year which I find hilarious. Lebron is even further ahead in BPM (box plus/minus) and VORP (value above replacement player). Wade is even ahead of Kobe in career BPM, which penalizes Kobe for not putting any effort in on defense and doesn't reward volume shooters who don't score efficiently.

Please tell me you're not insinuating that Kobe wasn't the best player on his team in both '09 and '10.

This isn't even a discussion. I'm sick of this debate.

MJ > Kobe > Lebron

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Please tell me you're not insinuating that Kobe wasn't the best player on his team in both '09 and '10.

He was the best player on his team in '09 and Gasol was a close second. Gasol and Kobe were pretty even in '10 - the statistics say Gasol was much better in both the regular season and the playoffs, but I think it's a wash because Kobe does command attention from defenses. Kobe hasn't put any effort in on defense which doesn't show up in win shares either.