Lebron vs. His Airness

it's pretty clear to me now, that eastcoast49er was the girl in the denver hotel room.

Shaq was the best player during the Shaq/Kobe run and Kobe was the best during the Kobe/Gasol run. That isn't a debate.

Originally posted by sacniner:
Shaq was the best player during the Shaq/Kobe run and Kobe was the best during the Kobe/Gasol run. That isn't a debate.

This is true and I will take their talents in their primes on my team any day. Great players. At his peak Shaq was the most dominant between he Kobe LBJ but of course he thought the offseason was for his leisure movie making and brand building. Shaq was always very likable and he still is. Kobe was the least likable but he was the hardest worker. LeBron is the best balance of work ethic talent and likeability amongst the three. If he keeps succeeding for another 5 to 6 years he might surpass them both and be closest to MJ but right now he simply hasn't achieved what Shaq and Kobe has yet

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
Tim Duncan in his prime would smoke MJ, Lebron, and Kobe in their primes in a game of 1 on 1.

Please man. Hakeem would eat TD for breakfast in his prime. You seen the dream? He will be TDs nightmare

What is this amateur night at the apollo I'm enraged just like a lion trapped inside of a cage!

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Please tell me you're not insinuating that Kobe wasn't the best player on his team in both '09 and '10.

He was the best player on his team in '09 and Gasol was a close second. Gasol and Kobe were pretty even in '10 - the statistics say Gasol was much better in both the regular season and the playoffs, but I think it's a wash because Kobe does command attention from defenses. Kobe hasn't put any effort in on defense which doesn't show up in win shares either.

You people are insane.

Originally posted by sacniner:

Shaq was the best player during the Shaq/Kobe run and Kobe was the best during the Kobe/Gasol run. That isn't a debate.

This. Kobe lovers always undermined Gasol, and Kobe haters always over estimate his cast around Kobe. But everyone can agree Kobe has led every Lakers team post Shaq.

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by 4ML:
But he didn't win 8 in a row and he did come back and lost in the 2nd round (something ppl forget to mention) and then had a 3 peat.

If Lebron left the game for couple years when he was 30 - ppl would be calling him soft and weak.

The experts on TV said Lebron should be disqualified from MVP race this year because he took 2 weeks off.

If Jordan played in this 24-7 hour TV and social media - ppl would be disqualifying him from the topic of greatest ever for taking couple years off.

And game was diluted in the 90s. It was the expansion era. Too many players who shouldn't be playing in the NBA were on the rosters and playing on a daily basis.

We know what MJ did and we know he came back in baseball shape in 95. We know he quit at the pinnacle and we know his daddy got murdered. Nobody in their right mind was calling MJ soft. He was an a$$hole and an a$$a$in but soft he was not. Any real G knew that. Also I came up during the 80s and 90s. 90s b ball was the golden age of basketball. This little man game today full of boys ain't nothing like back then. Lebron playing boys but MJ was playing men then. Grown men that went to college and played as adults. Physical men that were brutes and were allowed to play ball like how I played it growing up on the block. Now you got pint sized foreigners taking the ball to the cup and whatnot little men jacking up threes creating and you can't touch em. This ain't the game MJ played. Little boys today wouldn't survive the gauntlet back then. Dudes was dunking on you shoving nuts in your face and throwing you to the ground pointing at you. The whole globe was frightened to even step on the court with us. You can rep ya man LBJ all day but don't try to take down MJ with it. That's puzzling me. I went through it and I've seen it up to now and I disapprove of the changes to the game to allow more scoring from the wings and a deemphasis of the big man game and the integration of internationals in the game but they say its what sells so I deal with it but I know 90s ball was the ish for me. Malice in the palace was where a lot of things changed to me

All of this. If anyone doesn't believe, they should watch some old playoff games from the 80s and 90s.

Ironically, the scoring was higher in the 80s than it is now, even with the rules not being in place to help the offense. Simply put, the players were better.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by AmpLee:
Anyone who watched the game instead of typing up numbers into a statistics engine knows that Kobe made life so much easier on his teammates with all the attention he drew. This whole pointing to stats is void of context. Kobe's teams won championships because teams gameplanned and threw so many resources to stop him that anyone he played with got easy and ample opportunities. The evidence is in the numbers of the guys who clearly had their best seasons playing around Bryant. It's not a coincidence. And the reason you don't see that evidence show up in the statistics for Kobe (ie high assist totals) is because the majority of his passes went to guys who were in position to get an assist (ie the hockey assist). Kobe was most selfish when he padded his assist totals during times that people complained that he shot too much as he became more ball dominant and played outside of the offense in order to get those numbers. Not saying that Kobe couldn't have been a bit less selfish, but his selfishness is what allowed other guys to play so well. Of course, there's no statistic for that.

Do you mean Gasol? Gasol just had one of the best seasons of his career statistically playing on the Bulls even though he's well past his prime. He spent his prime on the Lakers (27 to 33 - big men tend to develop a little later). Shaq was dominant before coming to LA and spent his entire prime in Los Angeles.

Some of Kobe's other teammates haven't done well adjusting to playing with Kobe (Lin, Artest, Howard). Rick Fox's numbers were almost identical on the Celtics and Lakers.

Odom and Bynum may have benefited, but it's hard to tell because Odom spent his entire prime in LA after coming off a good season in Miami and Bynum was devastated by injuries after he left. There's definitely not the strong evidence you seem to think exists that Kobe makes his teammates better.

Kobe's definitely not the first person that comes into my mind when I think of players who make their teammates better. I love shooters who command attention from defenses, but Kobe was so ball dominant at times in his career that his teammates weren't always engaged on offense which transferred over to defense in some cases. Part of the greatness of Lebron is that he keeps his teammates engaged and is able to carry bad teams to the playoffs (and Finals). Kobe wins when he has great teammates (had some of the best frontcourts in the league most of his career with Shaq and then Bynum/Gasol/Odom and a great defender in Artest).

My boy Kobe has to be one of the most disrespected all-time great ballers. The lengths that people go to discredit what he's done is crazy. All i gotta say is he made Smush Parker look good lol. Lebron and Kobe both make their teammates better in different ways. Similar dynamic that Magic and Jordan had back in the day. Everyone needs great teammates to win i hate that argument every all-time great won their rings with great teammates.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Please tell me you're not insinuating that Kobe wasn't the best player on his team in both '09 and '10.

He was the best player on his team in '09 and Gasol was a close second. Gasol and Kobe were pretty even in '10 - the statistics say Gasol was much better in both the regular season and the playoffs, but I think it's a wash because Kobe does command attention from defenses. Kobe hasn't put any effort in on defense which doesn't show up in win shares either.

You people are insane.

2009-2010:



Looks pretty even to me.

I think this is a pretty good breakdown:

Originally posted by Jcool:
2009-2010:



Looks pretty even to me.

Yep. Due to PER, Pau Gasol was just as good as Kobe Bryant during the '09 and '10 championship runs. Jesus.

LeBron is too nice of a guy to say s**t like this:

"They don't need a ticket to watch you sitting on the bench. They can go to your house for that." - Michael to Charles Davis who was sorting through his tickets for his family and friends

"You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can't get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds? Big guy like that and he gets one rebound. Can't even stick his !%@ into people and get more than that...Big, fat, fat guy. One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward." - Michael ripping Stacey King a new one

"I hope there's a jumpshot in there." - Michael to Stacey King who was walking into the locker room with a box

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
All of this. If anyone doesn't believe, they should watch some old playoff games from the 80s and 90s.

Ironically, the scoring was higher in the 80s than it is now, even with the rules not being in place to help the offense. Simply put, the players were better.

LOL. No, they weren't. Not even close. The talent pool is exponentially deeper today than it was in the 80's and 90's. It's basic math. Times, heights, distances, etc have improved in every athletic endeavor, but people have gotten worse at basketball, despite enormous international growth and more money being invested into it than ever. Okay.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Jcool:
2009-2010:



Looks pretty even to me.

Yep. Due to PER, Pau Gasol was just as good as Kobe Bryant during the '09 and '10 championship runs. Jesus.

And Derek FIsher is at the bottom. What a POS player he was, right? We should've cut him after his rookie year.

sarcasm...fyi

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
All of this. If anyone doesn't believe, they should watch some old playoff games from the 80s and 90s.

Ironically, the scoring was higher in the 80s than it is now, even with the rules not being in place to help the offense. Simply put, the players were better.

LOL. No, they weren't. Not even close. The talent pool is exponentially deeper today than it was in the 80's and 90's. It's basic math. Times, heights, distances, etc have improved in every athletic endeavor, but people have gotten worse at basketball, despite enormous international growth and more money being invested into it than ever. Okay.

You say no and then you agree with him. If all it took to be good was being a good athlete players like Harold Miner and Derrick Williams would of averaged more then 9 ppg for their careers.