Alabama vs Notre Dame: BCS Championship

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

So lets just set this up

KC vs Bama

so what size ball are they gonna use?
One foot in or two?
15 yard PI or spot?
kicking off from?
hash marks, where the f**k they gonna go?

lol

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

Yep. That is why the College All Stars actually beat NFL teams a few times a few decades ago. The game was a complete exhibition. Make the game really count with the NFL team playing 100% on every play with all their starters and I just dont see Alabama able to win.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

Yep. That is why the College All Stars actually beat NFL teams a few times a few decades ago. The game was a complete exhibition. Make the game really count with the NFL team playing 100% on every play with all their starters and I just dont see Alabama able to win.

I was going to say the same thing. In a KC vs. Alabama game, the KC players wouldn't care and 'Bama would be playing like its their Super Bowl. Could you imagine being on 'Bama and beating an NFL team? What better way to move up the draft board.

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Interesting that one of the last few games was the college all-stars (which wasn't even a cohesive team, just a collection of players brought together for this game) came close to beating the reigning super bowl champion Steelers in 1975, 21-14. So I wonder what would've happened if the reigning college national champions of that year (as a team, with experience in their system and familiarity with each other) played the worst NFL team from that year. Or even if this college all-star squad (who came close to beating the world champs) would've played the worst NFL team from that year, instead of the best.

And yes, it's very much a different game in the NFL now than it is in the 70's, but the question is why? Part of the answer to why the NFL is so different now, with bigger, faster, stronger more athletic players is that college players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than they were in the 70's. There's a clear gap between the two (the best college team and the worst NFL team), but it's not the order of magnitude that some people are making it out to be.

Just my crazy opinion.

Yes, but the converse of the "they weren't even a cohesive team" point is that the Steelers were playing a meaningless exhibition game in August, whereas that College All-Star team was playing a group of their idols. I'm sure that game meant a lot more to the kids than the pros. I don't think guys like Franco Harris or Joe Greene were gonna go balls to the wall in that situation and risk injury. I don't know what was customary at the time, but I also wonder if the NFL teams would play their starters for the entire game, or if they'd treat it in a similar fashion to the way preseason games are handled now.

We've all seen what a joke the Pro Bowl is, with grown men playing grab ass for 4 quarters while trying to not get hurt, and it doesn't bear any resemblance to real football. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this exhibition was similar in nature, at least from the NFL side of things.

If there was actually something at stake for both an NFL team and a college team, I think the college team would get smoked. Too much of a size/speed discrepancy up front on both sides of the ball, IMO.

Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

if KC played Bama

the game would look like last nights game with Bama looking like ND

Just looking at KC starting defense they avg 4 years of NFL exp you just can't match that with college players
Strength, speed and knowledge is just far greater

Not to mention the rules are different to make the college game easier

That's your opinion and it's a valid one...however:

1.) It doesn't make it a fact though
2.) experience doesn't always win you football games
3.) having a superior squad (in terms of speed, strength and knowledge) doesn't automatically guarantee you victories. Sure helps, but doesn't lock in a win every single time.

So do you think Valdosta State could beat Alabama?

No, because you have MAYBE 1 player on that Valdosta St. roster than is NFL caliber, and even that's stretching it. Whereas:

- Alabama has 4-5 NFL caliber players on its offensive line alone and probably 2-3 first round picks among them (Kuandjio, Fluker, Jones, Warmack and maybe Williams)
- 1-2 likely first/2nd round RBs (Lacy and Yeldon)
- 1-2 likely first/2nd round WRs (Cooper definitely, maybe Norwood and Bell)
- 1-2 first round defensive lineman (definitely Williams, Dial in the 2nd maybe)
- 1-2 first round linebackers (definitely Moseley and eventually the 6'6", 250lb soph sensation Hubbard)
- the top CB in the country and high 1st rounder (Milliner)
- a handful of 3-7 round guys that make up the rest of your squad (McCarron, Damion Square, Robert Lester, Nico Johnson, Belue, Clinton-Dix, etc., etc., etc.)

So no to your question since they don't have the equivalent talent to compete at that particular level. Anything is possible, but some things aren't likely (like Valdosta St beating Alabama). Clearly, Alabama has the type of talent to at least make a game against the worst NFL team, a fight worth watching.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Interesting that one of the last few games was the college all-stars (which wasn't even a cohesive team, just a collection of players brought together for this game) came close to beating the reigning super bowl champion Steelers in 1975, 21-14. So I wonder what would've happened if the reigning college national champions of that year (as a team, with experience in their system and familiarity with each other) played the worst NFL team from that year. Or even if this college all-star squad (who came close to beating the world champs) would've played the worst NFL team from that year, instead of the best.

And yes, it's very much a different game in the NFL now than it is in the 70's, but the question is why? Part of the answer to why the NFL is so different now, with bigger, faster, stronger more athletic players is that college players are bigger, faster, stronger and more athletic than they were in the 70's. There's a clear gap between the two (the best college team and the worst NFL team), but it's not the order of magnitude that some people are making it out to be.

Just my crazy opinion.

Yes, but the converse of the "they weren't even a cohesive team" point is that the Steelers were playing a meaningless exhibition game in August, whereas that College All-Star team was playing a group of their idols. I'm sure that game meant a lot more to the kids than the pros. I don't think guys like Franco Harris or Joe Greene were gonna go balls to the wall in that situation and risk injury. I don't know what was customary at the time, but I also wonder if the NFL teams would play their starters for the entire game, or if they'd treat it in a similar fashion to the way preseason games are handled now.

We've all seen what a joke the Pro Bowl is, with grown men playing grab ass for 4 quarters while trying to not get hurt, and it doesn't bear any resemblance to real football. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this exhibition was similar in nature, at least from the NFL side of things.

If there was actually something at stake for both an NFL team and a college team, I think the college team would get smoked. Too much of a size/speed discrepancy up front on both sides of the ball, IMO.

Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

if KC played Bama

the game would look like last nights game with Bama looking like ND

Just looking at KC starting defense they avg 4 years of NFL exp you just can't match that with college players
Strength, speed and knowledge is just far greater

Not to mention the rules are different to make the college game easier

That's your opinion and it's a valid one...however:

1.) It doesn't make it a fact though
2.) experience doesn't always win you football games
3.) having a superior squad (in terms of speed, strength and knowledge) doesn't automatically guarantee you victories. Sure helps, but doesn't lock in a win every single time.

So do you think Valdosta State could beat Alabama?

No, because you have MAYBE 1 player on that Valdosta St. roster than is NFL caliber, and even that's stretching it. Whereas:

- Alabama has 4-5 NFL caliber players on its offensive line alone and probably 2-3 first round picks among them (Kuandjio, Fluker, Jones, Warmack and maybe Williams)
- 1-2 likely first/2nd round RBs (Lacy and Yeldon)
- 1-2 likely first/2nd round WRs (Cooper definitely, maybe Norwood and Bell)
- 1-2 first round defensive lineman (definitely Williams, Dial in the 2nd maybe)
- 1-2 first round linebackers (definitely Moseley and eventually the 6'6", 250lb soph sensation Hubbard)
- the top CB in the country and high 1st rounder (Milliner)
- a handful of 3-7 round guys that make up the rest of your squad (McCarron, Damion Square, Robert Lester, Nico Johnson, Belue, Clinton-Dix, etc., etc., etc.)

So no to your question since they don't have the equivalent talent to compete at that particular level. Anything is possible, but some things aren't likely (like Valdosta St beating Alabama). Clearly, Alabama has the type of talent to at least make a game against the worst NFL team, a fight worth watching.

Agreed, anything is possible and some aren't likely (like Bama beating KC)

So I say they do it
NFL rules
Bama vs KC

IF KC wins they get to keep the #1 pick and draft whoever they want
IF Bama wins KC must draft all Alabama players

do it

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

Yep. That is why the College All Stars actually beat NFL teams a few times a few decades ago. The game was a complete exhibition. Make the game really count with the NFL team playing 100% on every play with all their starters and I just dont see Alabama able to win.

I was going to say the same thing. In a KC vs. Alabama game, the KC players wouldn't care and 'Bama would be playing like its their Super Bowl. Could you imagine being on 'Bama and beating an NFL team? What better way to move up the draft board.

And that's definitely a key factor, no doubt about it. All things being equal and each team playing balls out like they would during a regular season game, I don't see an NFL team losing to a college squad....any college squad. Possible, but not likely...I'll concede that. But as I said earlier, I don't think the gap between the absolute worst NFL team and the clear-cut best college team is as huge as some make it out to be.

Valdosta St could indeed beat Bama, because Billy Jean King beat Riggs in a tennis match. Therefore anything in this world is possible.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

Yep. That is why the College All Stars actually beat NFL teams a few times a few decades ago. The game was a complete exhibition. Make the game really count with the NFL team playing 100% on every play with all their starters and I just dont see Alabama able to win.

I was going to say the same thing. In a KC vs. Alabama game, the KC players wouldn't care and 'Bama would be playing like its their Super Bowl. Could you imagine being on 'Bama and beating an NFL team? What better way to move up the draft board.

And that's definitely a key factor, no doubt about it. All things being equal and each team playing balls out like they would during a regular season game, I don't see an NFL team losing to a college squad....any college squad. Possible, but not likely...I'll concede that. But as I said earlier, I don't think the gap between the absolute worst NFL team and the clear-cut best college team is as huge as some make it out to be.

GoFD, some other key factors to think about:

-Not every rookie has a good first year. So even if Alabama has 10 draft picks on their roster, those 10 might not really make it in the NFL for another 2-3 years. Now down the road after a few seasons, those rookies might be significantly better then thier opposing player on KC, but we are talking about essentially where a rookie is at day 1 of training camp against a seasoned vet. Out of 10 draft picks, I'd say MAYBE 3-4 could outplay their opponent

-NFL schemes are far superior in depth and detail then college game. College QBs have improved significantly, but still at the college level players are not asked to really do much work analyzing a team. Week in and week out, they spend very little time doing film study and breakdown of opponent compared to NFL players. These are skills that take years to develop. What an NFL player reads in a game is 10x more complex and advanced then what a college player reads. College players are usually taught to read 2-3 keys and thats it.

-I think you are over looking the depth problem for a team like Alabama. Think of the very worst 49er team and how awful it was to watch some of those guys play, the guys we just picked up off the street. Those guys are BETTER then some of the players that will star for Alabama who will end up competing for a job in Arena Football.

I think Alabama could win against KC only because of the huge difference in motivation for the teams. KC would feel embarassed, defeated to even be in it and would have a "who gives a f**k attitude." Alabama would be motivated to play the game of thier life because its their dream and there is direct monetary compensation if they do well.

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Valdosta St could indeed beat Bama, because Billy Jean King beat Riggs in a tennis match. Therefore anything in this world is possible.

Don't forget about the dog that can play basketball

Originally posted by sacniner:
The fringe NFL guys are the best of the best in college though. And, if a college team played an NFL team in a real game there wouldn't be a bunch of "fringe" rookie players playing. It would be NFL starters playing.

In regards to the rarity of NFL size and speed, I disagree. The elite skill sets are rare. And the skills are FAR superior now. The gimmick offense stuff works in the highest levels of college ranks, but has not consistently worked in the NFL. There is a reason for that: the players are too good.

Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard

Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:


I think Alabama could win against KC only because of the huge difference in motivation for the teams. KC would feel embarassed, defeated to even be in it and would have a "who gives a f**k attitude." Alabama would be motivated to play the game of thier life because its their dream and there is direct monetary compensation if they do well.

i think KC would have more pride than that.

Originally posted by Dshearn:
Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard

Jesus, all those guys were on the same college team?

^^ Essentially agree SD, but here are some counters:

- Rookies are impacted greatly by having to learn new schemes, being in a totally new environment with new coaches, new players, new concepts and almost always new techniques, typically a new town and away from all that is familiar. So that plays a big part in their slow transition as well. If you're still on your college squad and playing an NFL team, everything is the same (system, coaches, most teammates, playbook, techniques, overall surroundings, etc.) except the opponent. Not sure how much of a factor that is, but it's still a factor.

- Absolutely agree about the complexity and depth of the schemes/systems and the attention to detail required at the NFL level (and the time allowed to practice/study your profession). IMO, this is the biggest factor in why an NFL team would beat college teams, even more so than sheer size, talent, experience and speed. However, with Saban being an ex-NFL coach, he runs his program (schematically and operationally) as close to an NFL program as any college team in the league. So even though it's clearly not at the level of the NFL, a lot of what Alabama does and how they go about doing it is taken from the NFL. So there is at least an exposure....enough so to make a difference though, probably not.

- Not entirely sure that Alabama has as much of a depth problem as you state. Their depth is young and haven't had their chance to shine on the FBS stage, no doubt about it...but in terms of sheer talent, I'm not so sure our 2004, 2005 street free agents would compare favorably to most of Saban's recruits (and probably many of their walk-ons for that matter). Many of our 2004/2005 street free agents (and those in the NFL in general) come from the Valdosta Sts., Northwest Eastern Southern Central College, Holy Sisters of Grace University and goofy places like that. Some came from bigger schools, but weren't stars by any means. So yes, Bama's depth is young and in that sense, would get crushed by even the worst NFL teams (especially on the line of scrimmage). But in terms of raw talent (skill positions in particular), not exactly sure those old street free agents are "better."