Defensive Line Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Excellent points to both of you. Some additional DT's I think would have been great DE's in the Wide 9. Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Randy White, Joe Klecko, Leonard Mitchel, Joe Green, Warren Sapp.

No question about it! I used to love watching Bryant Young, right before the snap, slide over to the gap, turn sideways and explode/swim through the gap into the backfield and blow the entire play up (TFL/Sack). Awesome!

It sounds like Kinlaw has some of that explosive abilities as well but in a much bigger body (Saleh = )

As much as I love the wide 9 for pass rush, and it's an excellent one for all body types, but especially for Kocurek's kind of DLineman. I hate it for it's run defensive weaknesses. Having said that, the Wide 9 - in pass rush mode still needs that edge rusher in the Saleh/Carroll scheme. Kinlaw is going to have a banner year under Kocurek. I can see Kocurek's mind devising all sorts of traps and schemes for Kinlaw to run so he can clock Midget 1 and 2 in the NFC west. The classic tackle-end stunt by Cowboy and Aldon is going to have to be revisited this year with Kinlaw. The buckner-bosa tackle-end stunt wasn't as effective as I wanted it to be last year because I never got the feeling Buckner mastered the Cowboy technique of hold the OT-OG to free Bosa to clock the QB. As I think NY85 or Hero said, Buckner wasn't an exact fit needed for the Kocureck wide 9. Kinlaw may be a rookie, but I think by the end of the year he'll be as effective absorbing double teams as Buckner was last year.

Legit question.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Excellent points to both of you. Some additional DT's I think would have been great DE's in the Wide 9. Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Randy White, Joe Klecko, Leonard Mitchel, Joe Green, Warren Sapp.

No question about it! I used to love watching Bryant Young, right before the snap, slide over to the gap, turn sideways and explode/swim through the gap into the backfield and blow the entire play up (TFL/Sack). Awesome!

It sounds like Kinlaw has some of that explosive abilities as well but in a much bigger body (Saleh = )

As much as I love the wide 9 for pass rush, and it's an excellent one for all body types, but especially for Kocurek's kind of DLineman. I hate it for it's run defensive weaknesses. Having said that, the Wide 9 - in pass rush mode still needs that edge rusher in the Saleh/Carroll scheme. Kinlaw is going to have a banner year under Kocurek. I can see Kocurek's mind devising all sorts of traps and schemes for Kinlaw to run so he can clock Midget 1 and 2 in the NFC west. The classic tackle-end stunt by Cowboy and Aldon is going to have to be revisited this year with Kinlaw. The buckner-bosa tackle-end stunt wasn't as effective as I wanted it to be last year because I never got the feeling Buckner mastered the Cowboy technique of hold the OT-OG to free Bosa to clock the QB. As I think NY85 or Hero said, Buckner wasn't an exact fit needed for the Kocureck wide 9. Kinlaw may be a rookie, but I think by the end of the year he'll be as effective absorbing double teams as Buckner was last year.

Good thing run defense doesn't matter anymore. Ha. We gave up 1,800 yards rushing and 4.5 ypc last year in year the W9... exact same as the previous year WITH Buckner. And Kinlaw's strength isn't run defense. He's far far more of an interior pass rusher.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Legit question.

Which #49ers DL would you rather have?

2011: Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Isaac Sopoaga, Ray McDonald, Ahmad Brooks, Ricky Jean-Francois (Jim Tomsula)

-OR-

2019: Nick Bosa, DeForest Buckner, D.J. Jones, Arik Armstead, Dee Ford, Ronald Blair (Kris Kocurek)

— Matt Barr (@MattBarr_) May 4, 2020

2019 because Justin Smith was nearing his end in 2011. 2019 DL has a lot more NFL years in front of them.

Originally posted by evil:

2019 because Justin Smith was nearing his end in 2011. 2019 DL has a lot more NFL years in front of them.

Man, for real. I see this logic and I'm still torn.

Originally posted by evil:
2019 because Justin Smith was nearing his end in 2011. 2019 DL has a lot more NFL years in front of them.

If we are comparing single years; 2011 vs 2019 then this is a very easy answer: 2011.

2011 was VERY stout vs the run. The 2019 was very soft against the run. The 2019 team had more talent and maybe more depth but they were not that good against the run.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Legit question.

Which #49ers DL would you rather have?

2011: Aldon Smith, Justin Smith, Isaac Sopoaga, Ray McDonald, Ahmad Brooks, Ricky Jean-Francois (Jim Tomsula)

-OR-

2019: Nick Bosa, DeForest Buckner, D.J. Jones, Arik Armstead, Dee Ford, Ronald Blair (Kris Kocurek)

— Matt Barr (@MattBarr_) May 4, 2020

One stat to convince me to go with the 2019 squad - the offense. I think Kyle's offense compliments the 2019 defense better than the 2011 offense did the 2011 defense. The stat I'm thinking about is the number one pass defense in the NFL in 2019. That's a great stat to have in a pass happy league both in 2011 and 2019. That stat makes me choose the 2019 squad.

Man, that's a tough one. I can't decide.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:
Excellent points to both of you. Some additional DT's I think would have been great DE's in the Wide 9. Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Randy White, Joe Klecko, Leonard Mitchel, Joe Green, Warren Sapp.

No question about it! I used to love watching Bryant Young, right before the snap, slide over to the gap, turn sideways and explode/swim through the gap into the backfield and blow the entire play up (TFL/Sack). Awesome!

It sounds like Kinlaw has some of that explosive abilities as well but in a much bigger body (Saleh = )

As much as I love the wide 9 for pass rush, and it's an excellent one for all body types, but especially for Kocurek's kind of DLineman. I hate it for it's run defensive weaknesses. Having said that, the Wide 9 - in pass rush mode still needs that edge rusher in the Saleh/Carroll scheme. Kinlaw is going to have a banner year under Kocurek. I can see Kocurek's mind devising all sorts of traps and schemes for Kinlaw to run so he can clock Midget 1 and 2 in the NFC west. The classic tackle-end stunt by Cowboy and Aldon is going to have to be revisited this year with Kinlaw. The buckner-bosa tackle-end stunt wasn't as effective as I wanted it to be last year because I never got the feeling Buckner mastered the Cowboy technique of hold the OT-OG to free Bosa to clock the QB. As I think NY85 or Hero said, Buckner wasn't an exact fit needed for the Kocureck wide 9. Kinlaw may be a rookie, but I think by the end of the year he'll be as effective absorbing double teams as Buckner was last year.

Good thing run defense doesn't matter anymore. Ha. We gave up 1,800 yards rushing and 4.5 ypc last year in year the W9... exact same as the previous year WITH Buckner. And Kinlaw's strength isn't run defense. He's far far more of an interior pass rusher.

Well, I'm not sold on our run defense in a sense. I think Kyle's offense did a lot more to reduce the opposing rush numbers (via Kyle's ball control run offense) vs our own rush defense. I mean when you line up the DLinemen in pass rush mode almost 100% of the time, offenses will - first - anticipate and call plays strong against that DLine alignment and - second - the alignment itself leads to severe run defense weaknesses. In essence, the alignment scheme reduces the DLine's *talent advantage* against the run.

Having said all that, I still choose the 2019 squad simply because everything offense pretty much happens through the air. Very few teams are ground pounding teams this day and age. A couple of things make passing a necessity. The Rules favor the passing game. Colleges are passing more and hence more and more players coming from college are coached better on passing than on running. Finally, Mobile QB's really are much tougher to defend against the pass and have a huge advantage over good run defenses when a QB can both credibly run and pass.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Originally posted by evil:

2019 because Justin Smith was nearing his end in 2011. 2019 DL has a lot more NFL years in front of them.

If we are comparing single years; 2011 vs 2019 then this is a very easy answer: 2011.

2011 was VERY stout vs the run. The 2019 was very soft against the run. The 2019 team had more talent and maybe more depth but they were not that good against the run.

If you put Prime Willis and Bowman behind the 2019 line, may not be having that conversation. This year hopefully the hot boyzz make their own noise.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Well, I'm not sold on our run defense in a sense. I think Kyle's offense did a lot more to reduce the opposing rush numbers (via Kyle's ball control run offense) vs our own rush defense. I mean when you line up the DLinemen in pass rush mode almost 100% of the time, offenses will - first - anticipate and call plays strong against that DLine alignment and - second - the alignment itself leads to severe run defense weaknesses. In essence, the alignment scheme reduces the DLine's *talent advantage* against the run.

Having said all that, I still choose the 2019 squad simply because everything offense pretty much happens through the air. Very few teams are ground pounding teams this day and age. A couple of things make passing a necessity. The Rules favor the passing game. Colleges are passing more and hence more and more players coming from college are coached better on passing than on running. Finally, Mobile QB's really are much tougher to defend against the pass and have a huge advantage over good run defenses when a QB can both credibly run and pass.

I hear you. The good news is yard all those yards had zero effect on a 13-3 season. That just shows you how much the league has moved towards pass rush, pass protection and pass defense.

It would be hard to argue your 2019 logic.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Well, I'm not sold on our run defense in a sense. I think Kyle's offense did a lot more to reduce the opposing rush numbers (via Kyle's ball control run offense) vs our own rush defense. I mean when you line up the DLinemen in pass rush mode almost 100% of the time, offenses will - first - anticipate and call plays strong against that DLine alignment and - second - the alignment itself leads to severe run defense weaknesses. In essence, the alignment scheme reduces the DLine's *talent advantage* against the run.

Having said all that, I still choose the 2019 squad simply because everything offense pretty much happens through the air. Very few teams are ground pounding teams this day and age. A couple of things make passing a necessity. The Rules favor the passing game. Colleges are passing more and hence more and more players coming from college are coached better on passing than on running. Finally, Mobile QB's really are much tougher to defend against the pass and have a huge advantage over good run defenses when a QB can both credibly run and pass.

I hear you. The good news is yard all those yards had zero effect on a 13-3 season. That just shows you how much the league has moved towards pass rush, pass protection and pass defense.

It would be hard to argue your 2019 logic.

Indeed. The poor run D didn't hurt until it did (Super Bowl). The 2011 team totally eliminates the running game of KC. I doubt they get 50 yards on them. But the 2019 pass rush is far superior. Practically historic. No way 2011 puts that kind of pressure on Mahommes which is the best shot at beating him.

I'd take 2019 over the balance of 2011.

Losing DJ Jones and Jullian Taylor middle of the season hurted the run defense. They had to bring back Earl Mitchell from retirement and promote Kevin Givens. Run defense was fine until they lost these 2.

I'm bumping this.

Ford, AA, Bosa, DJ and Kinlaw are the locks.

Blair and Julian are coming back from injury. They signed Hyder. Everyone talks about Givens. Whatever happened to Street?

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:

Losing DJ Jones and Jullian Taylor middle of the season hurted the run defense. They had to bring back Earl Mitchell from retirement and promote Kevin Givens. Run defense was fine until they lost these 2.

If kwon goes down again, we're choosing between nachos and shearsy again, right?