Defensive Line Thread

Originally posted by Heroism:

The 49ers don't use a 5T anymore and do zero two-gapping.

9t--3t--2it--9t

Hah—all that for nothing 😂 thanks 🤔

Originally posted by 91til:
Hah—all that for nothing 😂 thanks 🤔

Just funnel that same energy to what you now know. Here's some helpful information about our scheme that our very own NC was able to dig up.

Cheers, Hero that thread was helpful too.

9t
Bosa
Ford
Armstead
Blair
Moore (or a similar player)
Should add a player here as Ford insurance/replacement/because it's a f**king important position lol

3T
Armstead
Thomas
Jones
Taylor
Street

2it
Jones
(could use another player here)
Taylor
Armstead
Thomas
Street


Nickel

Ford — Armstead — Jones — Bosa [still a top 5 rush package IMO?]

Blair — Thomas — Taylor/Street — Moore/draft pick


Basic thing still applies: we could definitely add an Edge and a DT this offseason...

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by 91til:

Hah—all that for nothing 😂 thanks 🤔

Just funnel that same energy to what you now know. Here's some helpful information about our scheme that our very own NC was able to dig up.

Very often. Alot will defend on the the coordinator, but we used it effectively against the pass & run. What it takes to be effective against the run is a really good three technique DT that can penetrate upfield & maintain his gap. if not, it's succeptible against the run

— Andre Fluellen (@flu_dot_com) July 30, 2019

1) So another really important position is the 2tech (playing either head up on the guard or shaded inside). In all actuality, the 2texh needs the be the most explosive interior player, the 3tech needs to have a little more balance & control. Here is why...

— Andre Fluellen (@flu_dot_com) July 31, 2019

2) playing a 1T puts alot of stress on the LB that may have the b gap, because there is ALOT of distance between the 1t and the 5t (defensive end). Playing the 2T (or 2i) helps balance out the integrity of the defense...

— Andre Fluellen (@flu_dot_com) July 31, 2019

3) so the 2tech has to be EXTREMELY quick because he's almost at a disadvantage to the offensive guard to get cut out of his gap. So it's all one gap, no reading or 2 gapping! In the words of Kris Kocurek "read is a 4 letter word!"

— Andre Fluellen (@flu_dot_com) July 31, 2019

Bro, you found it!!! I couldn't remember his name. Thanks so much. I should hit him back. He was dead on too with how we ended up running it.

Originally posted by 91til:
Been trying to think this out so I'll just put it here--And I always forget if the NT is next to the LEO -- I think that's what it is.

So Base might be
Armstead(5t/BE) -- Thomas(3t) -- Jones(NT) -- Bosa(LEO/W9)
(Armstead would probably be better than Thomas at 3T but it's also probably Thomas' best shot at being useful)

Nickel:
Ford -- Thomas (or Jones?) -- Armstead -- Bosa

Who can play where: (there's probably a better way of listing this)
5T (run stopping DE)
Armstead
Thomas
Blair(?)
Street(?)

3T (penetrating DT)
Armstead
Thomas
Jones
Taylor
Street

NT (two gap space eater)
Jones
(who's his primary backup? Day was OK but I'd look to improve or go younger here)
Armstead
Taylor

LEO (rush end)
Bosa
Ford
Blair
D Moore (hoping we resign him at least for camp)
need a player here

IDK, just how it roughly looks in my head right now. Basically, our our depth is good, but not great--we could definitely use another LEO as Ford insurance/possible future replacement (and to give Bosa some snaps off here and there), and a DT, either one who can play 5T/Big End and 3T like Armstead, or a pure DT who can play 3t and NT. I'd imagine the FO has these needs pretty high up based on what they've said about prioritizing D-Line (and the fact that our DL was a major reason we were so good last year).

So basically, we need clones of everyone lol, or at least a clone of Dee Ford and AA. On another note, I'm not optimistic, but hoping that Solomon Thomas can finally do..something this year. All of the attention will be on everyone else and Thomas will likely play more inside than ever before.

Originally posted by 91til:

Cheers, Hero that thread was helpful too.

9t
Bosa
Ford
Armstead
Blair
Moore (or a similar player)
Should add a player here as Ford insurance/replacement/because it's a f**king important position lol

3T
Armstead
Thomas
Jones
Taylor
Street

2it
Jones
(could use another player here)
Taylor
Armstead
Thomas
Street


Nickel

Ford — Armstead — Jones — Bosa [still a top 5 rush package IMO?]

Blair — Thomas — Taylor/Street — Moore/draft pick


Basic thing still applies: we could definitely add an Edge and a DT this offseason...

The easiest thing is to use a prototype player for each spot: HERO chime in on players outside SF and descriptions.

W9 - Joey or Nick Bosa [255-265 pounds, strong enough to play all 3 downs, non-stop motor, can set the edge very well, play in space (drop back in coverage and read screens), yet quick and fast enough with an array of pass rush moves to close the space between lining up outside the T and the QB/RB. Ideally we'd have Joey on one side and Nick on the other]

Right now, since we don't have brother Bosa on the left, we're using 2 players to accomplish the ROLE of the W9...Armstead (strength) on base downs and Ford (quickness/speed) on obvious passing downs.

2i - D.J. Jones [295-310 pounds, wider-bodied, shorter, stout base, 1-gap attacker, quick enough to split OL, disruptive, strong enough to help occupy two on stunts. Former stud: Dana Stubblefield]

3T - Bryant Young [290 pounds, best interior pass rusher on every down, insanely quick, explosive, disruptive, lives in the backfield, too fast for C/G's]

Originally posted by NCommand:

The year we were historically bad in run defense:

2,654 yards allowed and 4.8 yards per carry

The last two years with Buckner:

1,800 yards allowed and 4.5 yards per carry

Where do you think we end up this year without Buckner?

Buckner was there when we had the historical bad run defense.

Our young defenders will continue to improve (Bosa, Greenlaw, Warner, ST). I wouldn't be worry about our run defense

Originally posted by NCommand:
The easiest thing is to use a prototype player for each spot: HERO chime in on players outside SF and descriptions.

W9 - Joey or Nick Bosa [255-265 pounds, strong enough to play all 3 downs, non-stop motor, can set the edge very well, play in space (drop back in coverage and read screens), yet quick and fast enough with an array of pass rush moves to close the space between lining up outside the T and the QB/RB. Ideally we'd have Joey on one side and Nick on the other]

Right now, since we don't have brother Bosa on the left, we're using 2 players to accomplish the ROLE of the W9...Armstead (strength) on base downs and Ford (quickness/speed) on obvious passing downs.

2i - D.J. Jones [295-310 pounds, wider-bodied, shorter, stout base, 1-gap attacker, quick enough to split OL, disruptive, strong enough to help occupy two on stunts. Former stud: Dana Stubblefield]

3T - Bryant Young [290 pounds, best interior pass rusher on every down, insanely quick, explosive, disruptive, lives in the backfield, too fast for C/G's]

Yeah, I think you're spot on. The big takeaway with the wide 9 interior DL is that they both need to be extremely quick and extremely explosive due to how offenses look to attack this scheme. We don't want our IDL getting stuck on blocks, getting trapped/whammed or taking on two OL, we want them to penetrate and create havoc in the backfield. Players like Stubby and BY would be perfect

The EDGE players in this defense are an interesting discussion. Before last season, I would've believed that the stretched out landmarks for the edge rushers in the wide 9 would be especially conducive to speed rushers. But as we saw last season, the stress put on the OT from the wide 9 coupled with the shorter path to the QB(straight line) benefits all types of edge rushers. Arik Armstead certainly doesn't come to mind when you think of a wide 9 edge, but he did well in that role. The wide 9 really is that damn good for pass rushing.

Originally posted by libertyforever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

The year we were historically bad in run defense:

2,654 yards allowed and 4.8 yards per carry

The last two years with Buckner:

1,800 yards allowed and 4.5 yards per carry

Where do you think we end up this year without Buckner?

Buckner was there when we had the historical bad run defense.

Our young defenders will continue to improve (Bosa, Greenlaw, Warner, ST). I wouldn't be worry about our run defense

I just wanted to use that one as to the ceiling for how bad it could get...LOL. Good ol' O'Neil. But technically, you are correct.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by NCommand:

The easiest thing is to use a prototype player for each spot: HERO chime in on players outside SF and descriptions.

W9 - Joey or Nick Bosa [255-265 pounds, strong enough to play all 3 downs, non-stop motor, can set the edge very well, play in space (drop back in coverage and read screens), yet quick and fast enough with an array of pass rush moves to close the space between lining up outside the T and the QB/RB. Ideally we'd have Joey on one side and Nick on the other]

Right now, since we don't have brother Bosa on the left, we're using 2 players to accomplish the ROLE of the W9...Armstead (strength) on base downs and Ford (quickness/speed) on obvious passing downs.

2i - D.J. Jones [295-310 pounds, wider-bodied, shorter, stout base, 1-gap attacker, quick enough to split OL, disruptive, strong enough to help occupy two on stunts. Former stud: Dana Stubblefield]

3T - Bryant Young [290 pounds, best interior pass rusher on every down, insanely quick, explosive, disruptive, lives in the backfield, too fast for C/G's]

Yeah, I think you're spot on. The big takeaway with the wide 9 interior DL is that they both need to be extremely quick and extremely explosive due to how offenses look to attack this scheme. We don't want our IDL getting stuck on blocks, getting trapped/whammed or taking on two OL, we want them to penetrate and create havoc in the backfield. Players like Stubby and BY would be perfect

The EDGE players in this defense are an interesting discussion. Before last season, I would've believed that the stretched out landmarks for the edge rushers in the wide 9 would be especially conducive to speed rushers. But as we saw last season, the stress put on the OT from the wide 9 coupled with the shorter path to the QB(straight line) benefits all types of edge rushers. Arik Armstead certainly doesn't come to mind when you think of a wide 9 edge, but he did well in that role. The wide 9 really is that damn good for pass rushing.

That edge point about even AA at 6'7" 295 finding lots of success in E9 is a huge point. Guys like Blair and even D.Moore had success as well and both are kind of hybrids between AA and Ford in terms of size, speed and athleticism.

In fact, the only challenge I saw for AA was his lateral ability to contain his edge. But with experience (and an easier visual point from W9), he'll learn to recognize it better en route to rushing with more experience.

He'll never be athletic enough to bull rush, stop, recover, and chase down a fast QB or RB outside T like Bosa, but he'll learn to see it sooner to stop his rush and contain his edge.

So yeah, you can have bigger ends and find success, obviously, even if they aren't prototypes.

Very interesting conversation taking place here with Peter King and John Lynch. Lynch talks about how the 49ers wanted to get bigger in the middle of the DL to counter Seattle's huge interior OL. He said Defo played around 285 last year. He also points how unique Kinlaw is in that he's a lean 325lbs penetrating interior DL aka a f**king unicorn.

@8:19

?t=498

Originally posted by Heroism:

Very interesting conversation taking place here with Peter King and John Lynch. Lynch talks about how the 49ers wanted to get bigger in the middle of the DL to counter Seattle's huge interior OL. He said Defo played around 285 last year. He also points how unique Kinlaw is in that he's a 325 penetrating interior DL aka a f**king unicorn.

@8:19

?t=498

285??? I thought he was 320 the year before. Wow!

But yeah, definitely not the prototypical size of a 3T in this scheme BUT the same skill set is there on a frame his size. This should be fun.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Heroism:
Very interesting conversation taking place here with Peter King and John Lynch. Lynch talks about how the 49ers wanted to get bigger in the middle of the DL to counter Seattle's huge interior OL. He said Defo played around 285 last year. He also points how unique Kinlaw is in that he's a 325 penetrating interior DL aka a f**king unicorn.

@8:19

?t=498

285??? I thought he was 320 the year before. Wow!

But yeah, definitely not the prototypical size of a 3T in this scheme BUT the same skill set is there on a frame his size. This should be fun.

I can see how bigger DT's can make a difference against running teams. That's a subtle point that I never really considered. I do think we got some big bodies in the middle of that line that can work enough against the run game that a lot of people will throw against the Wide 9 on run downs.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Heroism:

Originally posted by NCommand:
The easiest thing is to use a prototype player for each spot: HERO chime in on players outside SF and descriptions.

W9 - Joey or Nick Bosa [255-265 pounds, strong enough to play all 3 downs, non-stop motor, can set the edge very well, play in space (drop back in coverage and read screens), yet quick and fast enough with an array of pass rush moves to close the space between lining up outside the T and the QB/RB. Ideally we'd have Joey on one side and Nick on the other]

Right now, since we don't have brother Bosa on the left, we're using 2 players to accomplish the ROLE of the W9...Armstead (strength) on base downs and Ford (quickness/speed) on obvious passing downs.

2i - D.J. Jones [295-310 pounds, wider-bodied, shorter, stout base, 1-gap attacker, quick enough to split OL, disruptive, strong enough to help occupy two on stunts. Former stud: Dana Stubblefield]

3T - Bryant Young [290 pounds, best interior pass rusher on every down, insanely quick, explosive, disruptive, lives in the backfield, too fast for C/G's]

Yeah, I think you're spot on. The big takeaway with the wide 9 interior DL is that they both need to be extremely quick and extremely explosive due to how offenses look to attack this scheme. We don't want our IDL getting stuck on blocks, getting trapped/whammed or taking on two OL, we want them to penetrate and create havoc in the backfield. Players like Stubby and BY would be perfect

The EDGE players in this defense are an interesting discussion. Before last season, I would've believed that the stretched out landmarks for the edge rushers in the wide 9 would be especially conducive to speed rushers. But as we saw last season, the stress put on the OT from the wide 9 coupled with the shorter path to the QB(straight line) benefits all types of edge rushers. Arik Armstead certainly doesn't come to mind when you think of a wide 9 edge, but he did well in that role. The wide 9 really is that damn good for pass rushing.

That edge point about even AA at 6'7" 295 finding lots of success in E9 is a huge point. Guys like Blair and even D.Moore had success as well and both are kind of hybrids between AA and Ford in terms of size, speed and athleticism.

In fact, the only challenge I saw for AA was his lateral ability to contain his edge. But with experience (and an easier visual point from W9), he'll learn to recognize it better en route to rushing with more experience.

He'll never be athletic enough to bull rush, stop, recover, and chase down a fast QB or RB outside T like Bosa, but he'll learn to see it sooner to stop his rush and contain his edge.

So yeah, you can have bigger ends and find success, obviously, even if they aren't prototypes.

Excellent points to both of you. Some additional DT's I think would have been great DE's in the Wide 9. Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Randy White, Joe Klecko, Leonard Mitchel, Joe Green, Warren Sapp.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Excellent points to both of you. Some additional DT's I think would have been great DE's in the Wide 9. Gary "Big Hands" Johnson, Randy White, Joe Klecko, Leonard Mitchel, Joe Green, Warren Sapp.

No question about it! I used to love watching Bryant Young, right before the snap, slide over to the gap, turn sideways and explode/swim through the gap into the backfield and blow the entire play up (TFL/Sack). Awesome!

It sounds like Kinlaw has some of that explosive abilities as well but in a much bigger body (Saleh = )