Los Angeles Chargers QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by Ghostofabshelmet:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Ghostofabshelmet:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Ghostofabshelmet:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Ghostofabshelmet:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Right and like Hero stated, that's how these younger QBs are being taught to throw the ball. A lot of these young QBs are elite athletes now, it's not the Tom Brady's of the world that are becoming 5 star QB recruits. The whole point is to be able to move and make throws a long with standing in the pocket and throwing the ball. The league is changing and has been for a while. Tom Brady at 45 or however old he is, is one of one. Dude is so mentally ahead of everyone from decades of playing that he knows where to go before the ball is snapped. His footwork is pristine, which makes him so accurate. His pocket presence is elite. It's funny I saw a stat, Tommy threw more 20+ passing attempts then anyone in the league and yet he had the 2nd highest TTT in the NFL So the whole you need a elite pass-blocking OL in order to throw the ball downfield is kinda moot. You need an elite QB who can process pre/post. You need a scheme that doesn't allow a D to pin their ears back every down.

am I reading this right? 2nd highest time to throw and most 20 yard passes but don't need elite pass blocking to throw downfield?

From the #1 ranked OL (until Wirfs gets hurt again, of course). Must be nice to live in that world of reality.

In this situation I'm pretty sure that means his TTT is the second quickest. Which Is more consistent with NY's point

So Brady made his OL better?

Correct…Most people wouldn't be shocked by this (well maybe a couple in here).

With primarily the same OL/coaching staff Winston was near the top of the league in sacks the year prior.

it's down right stupid to not think having a QB the caliber of Brady wouldn't help any OL improve.

Incorrect. He hed the #1 ranked OL before he arrived and helped maintain it as the #1 unit. Like Stafford took the #3 OL and helped get it to #1.

The degree to which they both "helped the OL" is not as significant as many would expect.

That doesn't mean they didn't help though...whether it's an athletic (Mahomes) top 5 TTT QB (Brady - quick release and proper pre snap reads and flawless execution), it helps. The flip side works the same way. Staffords OL allowed him to play his game (a high 2.76 TTT + a league leading 600+ passing attempts). They help each other.

If anything it just proves the marriage between the two is a critical component to winning it all.

And one missing piece (non-elite QB or OL) and it can fall apart instantly. You can only go so far.

Do you mind if you link the sources you got for them having the number one line in 2019 From what I remember the Buccs o line from that year was much maligned and the addition of wirfs really helped them along with Brady getting the hall out quick.

See the OL thread. Loads of info in there.

The OL thread is almost 2000 pages long with most of the pages being complaints about the quality of our own OL, most of the sources I've looked up had the buccs more middling from that year as well as posters posting different stats that suggest they weren't the number one o line 2019

Go back 1 page. I reposted both again for you.

FYI, Brandon Thorn (Bucs) is probably the single best source. He's all OL, 24-7 for years.

Thanks! So from what i can understand to the
excerpt you posted that seems to be from a power ranking from 2021 though it does mention that in 2020 they were pre season ranked at 3, which I think a lot of it has to do with the addition of wirfs because their 19 o line the one that Brady inherited wasn't considered the top notch unit it's considered today

Exactly. Adding Brady to that OL and then trading up for RT Wirfs for Brady's first start was massive. They also ended #1 as well so together, they maintained that level of play. And conversely, we all know what happened when Wirfs went down/played injured like TW.

You need both...ideally.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
While the rams were tied for #1 last year in PBWR, the bucs were 17th in 2020 and the chiefs were 14th the year before that. While it certainly helps having a top QB and top PP, I don't think it is an end all be all to winning a SB. I couldn't seem to find those rankings any further back than 2019 but it would be interesting to see where the other SB winning teams ranked over the past 2 decades.

It's not the end-all, be-all. But it certainly gives you the best chance. I can't find a better combo yet.

Also, keep in mind the volume of attempts for those teams too.

I would like to see a true corralation between the two though. When its crunch time and its 3rd and medium-long is what I would focus on the most, not the volume of attempts.

Originally posted by Sickaa:
Elite QBs can mask a weakness until It eventually gets exposed when It matters most?. Let's hope Lance Is elite then. He may need to be playing behind this O-Line.

Haha. At the end of the day, talent is talent and it's going to be exposed for what it is in the playoffs. Good or bad.

Maiocco covered it best on his podcast yesterday when he noted his 2 most important competitions: C and RG and citing Kyle is a master of working around talent gaps on the OL. He can scheme to cover up 1 stud DL like Aaron Donald but a 2nd, like Von Miller+, they can't.

The point is why even put yourself in that position esp. given your investment at QB now. It's backwards logic and proves Kyle really believes (we've seen his quotes) he can scheme around it esp. with just a little more play making ability at QB.

Let's hope he's right...and/or this new OL comes together and starts moving towards a upper level unit soon.

If the goal is to win a Superbowl, of course.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
While the rams were tied for #1 last year in PBWR, the bucs were 17th in 2020 and the chiefs were 14th the year before that. While it certainly helps having a top QB and top PP, I don't think it is an end all be all to winning a SB. I couldn't seem to find those rankings any further back than 2019 but it would be interesting to see where the other SB winning teams ranked over the past 2 decades.

It's not the end-all, be-all. But it certainly gives you the best chance. I can't find a better combo yet.

Also, keep in mind the volume of attempts for those teams too.

I would like to see a true corralation between the two though. When its crunch time and its 3rd and medium-long is what I would focus on the most, not the volume of attempts.

I know, it's so frustrating given how few quality metrics there are out there. And to a previous conversation, both a QB and OL can play pretty poor (Rams) for 3 full quarters and then suddenly turn it on and run block and pass protect to perfection and hit every big throw and win but their "overall" grade would be pretty low.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Incorrect. He hed the #1 ranked OL before he arrived and helped maintain it as the #1 unit. Like Stafford took the #3 OL and helped get it to #1.

The degree to which they both "helped the OL" is not as significant as many would expect.

That doesn't mean they didn't help though...whether it's an athletic (Mahomes) top 5 TTT QB (Brady - quick release and proper pre snap reads and flawless execution), it helps. The flip side works the same way. Staffords OL allowed him to play his game (a high 2.76 TTT + a league leading 600+ passing attempts). They help each other.

If anything it just proves the marriage between the two is a critical component to winning it all.

And one missing piece (non-elite QB or OL) and it can fall apart instantly. You can only go so far.

Wait so the 1# OL in the league had Winston top 5 in sacks? The year before Brady showed up it was all about how they needed to get upgrades. Jensen was not some elite stud. Smith was looked at as a overpaid LT. Cappa was never a pro-bowler or some elite guard. Marpet was the only true elite guy on that OL.

it was significant to the point where they were near the top of the sack/hit list all the way near the bottom with Brady. 2nd lowest TTT in the league yet most 20+ yard attempts lol. Yeah that has nothing to do with the QB 😂

wait since when is 2.76 TTT high? Jimmy G was 2.67 lol. Kirk was 2.76 Matt Ryan was 2.77.

yes I agree you can only go so far without one or the other. That was NEVER my debate with you. It was the value a great QB brings to improving everything including the OL and the misconception that guard play is some thing where you need elite talent to be successful.

Blah blah blah. Still in here spewing your "QB makes the OL" B.S. That's annually disproven so no need to rehash that esp. when our OL is nowhere near that come playoff time anyways.

The closest anyone has come to that myth is Burrow and he lost too.

Carry on though. If you want to say an upper level QB helps an upper level OL and vice versa modestly, I'll buy it. It helps. Hell, it might even end up being the difference.

I mean you're both right. QBs no matter how special cannot excel without a legit OL. Look at the last two SBs for proof of that. KC had no chance with that OL in their SB vs Tampa and Burrow wins that game if his OL just blocks for another split second.

However QB absolutely does HELP the OL. He doesn't make them but the example I always use is the Pats 2007 to 2008 swing. I always found it funny how people dismissed Brady cuz Cassel won 11 games in 2008 well look at how(and that's forgetting what a 5 game swing actually is to a team 12-4 team going to 7-9 team)

Brady in 2007 in 578 pass attempts was sacked 21 times
Same OL in 2008 and Cassel in 516 attempts was sacked 47 times

Less attempts and more than twice the amount of sacks taken. QB absolutely improves the OL play if he knows what he's doing.

But it would be a really unfair expectation for Trey to do anything like Brady has been doing for a while now. Hopefully one day he'll get there. Until then his athletic ability will help on some plays and lead to sacks on others. It's gonna happen so we better hope our OL is as good as they can be. Cuz a good OL clearly helps a QB whether he's a pocket passer or athletic guy.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Incorrect. He hed the #1 ranked OL before he arrived and helped maintain it as the #1 unit. Like Stafford took the #3 OL and helped get it to #1.

The degree to which they both "helped the OL" is not as significant as many would expect.

That doesn't mean they didn't help though...whether it's an athletic (Mahomes) top 5 TTT QB (Brady - quick release and proper pre snap reads and flawless execution), it helps. The flip side works the same way. Staffords OL allowed him to play his game (a high 2.76 TTT + a league leading 600+ passing attempts). They help each other.

If anything it just proves the marriage between the two is a critical component to winning it all.

And one missing piece (non-elite QB or OL) and it can fall apart instantly. You can only go so far.

Wait so the 1# OL in the league had Winston top 5 in sacks? The year before Brady showed up it was all about how they needed to get upgrades. Jensen was not some elite stud. Smith was looked at as a overpaid LT. Cappa was never a pro-bowler or some elite guard. Marpet was the only true elite guy on that OL.

it was significant to the point where they were near the top of the sack/hit list all the way near the bottom with Brady. 2nd lowest TTT in the league yet most 20+ yard attempts lol. Yeah that has nothing to do with the QB 😂

wait since when is 2.76 TTT high? Jimmy G was 2.67 lol. Kirk was 2.76 Matt Ryan was 2.77.

yes I agree you can only go so far without one or the other. That was NEVER my debate with you. It was the value a great QB brings to improving everything including the OL and the misconception that guard play is some thing where you need elite talent to be successful.

Blah blah blah. Still in here spewing your "QB makes the OL" B.S. That's annually disproven so no need to rehash that esp. when our OL is nowhere near that come playoff time anyways.

The closest anyone has come to that myth is Burrow and he lost too.

Carry on though. If you want to say an upper level QB helps an upper level OL and vice versa modestly, I'll buy it. It helps. Hell, it might even end up being the difference.

I mean you're both right. QBs no matter how special cannot excel without a legit OL. Look at the last two SBs for proof of that. KC had no chance with that OL in their SB vs Tampa and Burrow wins that game if his OL just blocks for another split second.

However QB absolutely does HELP the OL. He doesn't make them but the example I always use is the Pats 2007 to 2008 swing. I always found it funny how people dismissed Brady cuz Cassel won 11 games in 2008 well look at how(and that's forgetting what a 5 game swing actually is to a team 12-4 team going to 7-9 team)

Brady in 2007 in 578 pass attempts was sacked 21 times
Same OL in 2008 and Cassel in 516 attempts was sacked 47 times

Less attempts and more than twice the amount of sacks taken. QB absolutely improves the OL play if he knows what he's doing.

But it would be a really unfair expectation for Trey to do anything like Brady has been doing for a while now. Hopefully one day he'll get there. Until then his athletic ability will help on some plays and lead to sacks on others. It's gonna happen so we better hope our OL is as good as they can be. Cuz a good OL clearly helps a QB whether he's a pocket passer or athletic guy.

Definitely. Only the 'degree' is the issue with fan expectations. And with more and more athletic QB's and less classic pocket QB's (easier to grade OL) it's going to get even more convoluted to sort out.

The goal is simple: get both.

Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

They had a ton of injuries and couldn't get their full line together for a while. They were even ranked 14th in pre season for that reason alone.

That too. Better Rivals would love you for that comment.

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

weren't the chiefs playing with all or most OL back ups in the SB

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

weren't the chiefs playing with all or most OL back ups in the SB

Looking at the practice report the week before the SB, Eric Fisher was out but the other lineman were full participants.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

weren't the chiefs playing with all or most OL back ups in the SB

Looking at the practice report the week before the SB, Eric Fisher was out but the other lineman were full participants.

*ohhhhhh the holdings and false starts allowed.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
Cheifs PBWR was actually significantly better in 2020 than it was in 2019. I don't think PP tells the entire story of the chiefs loss in the SB. I also brought up the same point when talking about the patriots 2 losses to the giants in 2007 and 2011. Great coverage can force a QB to hold onto the ball longer than what he would like, allowing pressure to get home. This happened to Mahomes in the SB against the bucs as well.

weren't the chiefs playing with all or most OL back ups in the SB

Looking at the practice report the week before the SB, Eric Fisher was out but the other lineman were full participants.

They were missing their Starting tackles and reshuffled the OL

Without Fisher the Chiefs will probably start Mike Remmers, who had replaced Schwartz at right tackle, at left tackle. Andrew Wylie will move from right guard to right tackle, and Stefen Wisniewski will start at right guard.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jefffedotin/2021/02/01/the-kansas-city-chiefs-reshuffled-offensive-line-could-determine-super-bowl-lv-outcome/?sh=4c6926e613c7

Anyways, back to Trey. There's no denying his 'ability' from top to bottom. He has everything you need. You're really starting to hear his natural leadership come to the surface as well. And that's coming from veterans. That piece is huge in taking over a lockerroom.

Originally posted by YACBros85:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by YACBros85:
ESPN had the Bucs o line ranked 17th in pass block win rate but pff had the o line ranked 7th overall and 2nd in the league for IOL.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27584726/nfl-pass-blocking-pass-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-2019-regular-season

Right and PFF takes into account run blocking. PBWR does not. OH and guess who has a better PBWR this yr SF or TB? It was SF lol

I get what you are saying but perhaps the Bucs tackles weren't all that great? Idk. But pff did have this to say.

"The guard and center positions for the Bucs combined for an 80.4 pass-blocking grade this season, ranking second among all offenses around the league."

All I'm saying they is SF had a better PBWR then Tampa yet everyone in here is telling me Tampa is an elite OL and SF's blows.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
All I'm saying they is SF had a better PBWR then Tampa yet everyone in here is telling me Tampa is an elite OL and SF's blows.

Shut your yap. TB OL has been the best OL in the biz prior to Brady