The Ray McDonald thread

I want Jim to start Ray just to see Tim K and Ann K implode.

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

The nature of the crime you are accused of doesnt suddenly change due process and simply being accused of a crime shouldnt jeapordize a persons employment.

There is a huge difference between what is and what should be.

In most cases an employer can discharge a person without any consideration of due process.

McDonald's rights to due process with the 49ers, not with the legal system, is defined by contract.

McDonald enjoys more due process rights regarding his job than most people.

Whether it should be this way or not is clearly debatable, but the fact that it is this way is not up for debate.

In general terms, or in most cases, the constitution does not govern employer--employee relations.

Originally posted by deepniner:

Its unfortunate for McDonald, but the niners should sit him at least this week

What for? I agree with sking, if you bench him, you have to commit to benching him until this is resolved - and who knows how long that will take? If you go that route and McDonald is cleared of any wrongdoing, we just punished an innocent man. I'd rather the team let due process take it's course and react only if they find him guilty of something instead of reacting under pressure from the this witch hunt the media has created.

Originally posted by deepniner:

Its unfortunate for McDonald, but the niners should sit him at least this week

innocent until proven guilty,

assuming his head is clear and he can focus, he should play.

Originally posted by NeonNiner:

What for? I agree with sking, if you bench him, you have to commit to benching him until this is resolved - and who knows how long that will take? If you go that route and McDonald is cleared of any wrongdoing, we just punished an innocent man. I'd rather the team let due process take it's course and react only if they find him guilty of something instead of reacting under pressure from the this witch hunt the media has created.

Not really. The 49ers can not activate while they carry out their investigation. When their investigation is over, they can decide what to do.

If they feel that the evidence clearly indicates that McDonald did physically abuse his wife, they could release him.

If they feel that the evidence clearly indicates that McDonald did not physically abuse his wife, they could activate him.

If they feel that the evidence is inconclusive, they could activate him, and not make a final decision until after the legal process has ended.

The legal process could end soon, if the district attorney decides not to prosecute or it could be a long time if the district attorney decides to prosecute.

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by deepniner:
Its unfortunate for McDonald, but the niners should sit him at least this week

innocent until proven guilty,

assuming his head is clear and he can focus, he should play.

Don't feed the troll, Donnie... Just look at a few of his posts... I'm guessing he lives at .nut...

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by DelCed2486:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by yossarian:
Kawakami said they should bench him with pay. And he's right that the whole "due process" thing is for how the government is bound by due process before it imprisons citizens for crimes. It does not necessarily apply to employment situations.

I have said it before in this very thread, if you organization can't hold it self to the most basic of standards our country was founded on, what good is it?

Edit: also I find the idea that you think of due process as something our government is "bound by" and not a persons right as a free citizen incredibly alarming.

That's a pretty simplistic way to look at it...go ask anyone serving in the US Armed Forces if they have, oh, "freedom of speech" the same as civillians do. There are gray areas, there is context...it's just not always as simple as "innocent until proven guility." I used to work at LLNL with a Q-clearance (Top Secret)...just the act of being arrested--not charged, not convicted--but just arrested was enough to have my clearance suspended and investigation launched. There's no shortage of examples where just being arrested can impact your employment in some way.

PR is a large and important part of the corporate world, and the 49ers are just as much a corporation as they are a football team....and even though not exact same circumstances, the fact remains it was a PR black eye letting Aldon Smith play in the Colts game last year, so it's crazy to think that the 49ers aren't giving very serious consideration to benching McDonald at least for this week, even if it's before "due process" has played itself out.

And remember, it ain't just some snark and criticism from people like Kawakami, Peter King, et al. that the 49ers are worried about...it's Yahoo, Brocade, Levi Strauss, etc., a bunch of corporate partners smack dab in the heart of the hyper-sensitive Bay Area. I'm not saying they have input or are trying to influence what the 49ers do, but I'm sure they are actively folllowing events as they unfold.

Military service is completely different than being a private citizen. If you cant see that there is no talking to you on this subject.

Well smart guy, you're the one who said if an organization can't ahere to "most basic of standards our country was founded on" then what good is it...I simply gave you just one example of an organization that doesn't yet is pretty d**n good. There's a s***load of "good organizations" that have employment at-will, where absent a termination procedure or understanding that it's not EAW, they can fire your a** for just about any reason or no reason at all, i.e. there is no "due process". But anyway, feel free to ignore everything else I said since it doesn't comport with your overly simplistic view.

What a crock. I get that the media hates Harbaugh, and whether that is deserved or not he's doing the right thing here. Harbaugh isn't a cop or a judge. It isn't his place to punish a player without first knowing the facts.

Obviously I'm biased here, but I find it pretty disgusting that NO other team gets even 1% of the media scrutiny that we do, even when their players do the same (or worse). Sorry world, but it's not the 49ers' fault Ray Rice (effectively) got away with knocking out his fiancée.

So please, take your misguided faux "outrage," tuck it between your ass cheeks and jump off a cliff. Thanks.

Originally posted by DelCed2486:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by DelCed2486:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by yossarian:
Kawakami said they should bench him with pay. And he's right that the whole "due process" thing is for how the government is bound by due process before it imprisons citizens for crimes. It does not necessarily apply to employment situations.

I have said it before in this very thread, if you organization can't hold it self to the most basic of standards our country was founded on, what good is it?

Edit: also I find the idea that you think of due process as something our government is "bound by" and not a persons right as a free citizen incredibly alarming.

That's a pretty simplistic way to look at it...go ask anyone serving in the US Armed Forces if they have, oh, "freedom of speech" the same as civillians do. There are gray areas, there is context...it's just not always as simple as "innocent until proven guility." I used to work at LLNL with a Q-clearance (Top Secret)...just the act of being arrested--not charged, not convicted--but just arrested was enough to have my clearance suspended and investigation launched. There's no shortage of examples where just being arrested can impact your employment in some way.

PR is a large and important part of the corporate world, and the 49ers are just as much a corporation as they are a football team....and even though not exact same circumstances, the fact remains it was a PR black eye letting Aldon Smith play in the Colts game last year, so it's crazy to think that the 49ers aren't giving very serious consideration to benching McDonald at least for this week, even if it's before "due process" has played itself out.

And remember, it ain't just some snark and criticism from people like Kawakami, Peter King, et al. that the 49ers are worried about...it's Yahoo, Brocade, Levi Strauss, etc., a bunch of corporate partners smack dab in the heart of the hyper-sensitive Bay Area. I'm not saying they have input or are trying to influence what the 49ers do, but I'm sure they are actively folllowing events as they unfold.

Military service is completely different than being a private citizen. If you cant see that there is no talking to you on this subject.

Well smart guy, you're the one who said if an organization can't ahere to "most basic of standards our country was founded on" then what good is it...I simply gave you just one example of an organization that doesn't yet is pretty d**n good. There's a s***load of "good organizations" that have employment at-will, where absent a termination procedure or understanding that it's not EAW, they can fire your a** for just about any reason or no reason at all, i.e. there is no "due process". But anyway, feel free to ignore everything else I said since it doesn't comport with your overly simplistic view.

Yes...that is valid response...Come up with an example that has nothing to do with the subject and then claim moral victory. Continue to internet tough guy, it suits you.

i think people are saying ray should set this weekend because it is what "experts" and the media says we should do. i think some of our fans are really getting caught up in the talking points that seem to be EVERYWHERE in the media whether print, tv or radio that we are thugs, we have a bad image, we need to punish ray, we are going to suck, blah blah

Originally posted by baltien:

What a crock. I get that the media hates Harbaugh, and whether that is deserved or not he's doing the right thing here. Harbaugh isn't a cop or a judge. It isn't his place to punish a player without first knowing the facts.

Obviously I'm biased here, but I find it pretty disgusting that NO other team gets even 1% of the media scrutiny that we do, even when their players do the same (or worse). Sorry world, but it's not the 49ers' fault Ray Rice (effectively) got away with knocking out his fiancée.

So please, take your misguided faux "outrage," tuck it between your ass cheeks and jump off a cliff. Thanks.

This is the doing of our own bay area media. National writers just piggyback off of them. Our sport columnists don't deserve to live by the bay. Constantly sh**ing on our teams

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by DelCed2486:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by DelCed2486:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

Originally posted by yossarian:
Kawakami said they should bench him with pay. And he's right that the whole "due process" thing is for how the government is bound by due process before it imprisons citizens for crimes. It does not necessarily apply to employment situations.

I have said it before in this very thread, if you organization can't hold it self to the most basic of standards our country was founded on, what good is it?

Edit: also I find the idea that you think of due process as something our government is "bound by" and not a persons right as a free citizen incredibly alarming.

That's a pretty simplistic way to look at it...go ask anyone serving in the US Armed Forces if they have, oh, "freedom of speech" the same as civillians do. There are gray areas, there is context...it's just not always as simple as "innocent until proven guility." I used to work at LLNL with a Q-clearance (Top Secret)...just the act of being arrested--not charged, not convicted--but just arrested was enough to have my clearance suspended and investigation launched. There's no shortage of examples where just being arrested can impact your employment in some way.

PR is a large and important part of the corporate world, and the 49ers are just as much a corporation as they are a football team....and even though not exact same circumstances, the fact remains it was a PR black eye letting Aldon Smith play in the Colts game last year, so it's crazy to think that the 49ers aren't giving very serious consideration to benching McDonald at least for this week, even if it's before "due process" has played itself out.

And remember, it ain't just some snark and criticism from people like Kawakami, Peter King, et al. that the 49ers are worried about...it's Yahoo, Brocade, Levi Strauss, etc., a bunch of corporate partners smack dab in the heart of the hyper-sensitive Bay Area. I'm not saying they have input or are trying to influence what the 49ers do, but I'm sure they are actively folllowing events as they unfold.

Military service is completely different than being a private citizen. If you cant see that there is no talking to you on this subject.

Well smart guy, you're the one who said if an organization can't ahere to "most basic of standards our country was founded on" then what good is it...I simply gave you just one example of an organization that doesn't yet is pretty d**n good. There's a s***load of "good organizations" that have employment at-will, where absent a termination procedure or understanding that it's not EAW, they can fire your a** for just about any reason or no reason at all, i.e. there is no "due process". But anyway, feel free to ignore everything else I said since it doesn't comport with your overly simplistic view.

Yes...that is valid response...Come up with an example that has nothing to do with the subject and then claim moral victory. Continue to internet tough guy, it suits you.

Tough guy because I refuted what you said with these annoying things called "facts"? Okay. The "subject" was what you said about organizations, and I gave you an example...and I'm telling you no shortage of "non-military" (since you don't like that example) organizations that do not have "due process". I mean you do understand there's a difference between rights as it pertains to those which can't be infringed by government and those in employment, right?

And my overall point this is as much about PR as it is anything else...and it will get worse down the line should McDonald get convicted, accept a plea, or whatever that ostensibly serves as proof/admission that yes, he put his hands on his GF. Even though I am sure he didn't do anything nearly as bad as Ray Rice, perhaps he was just trying to "restrain" her from attacking him/someone else and that left marks...but if the legal system finds him "guility", the 49ers won't have much choice but to cut him owing to their stated zero-tolerance policy. Or if the 49ers own investigation finds that McDonald is "guility", Baalke said they wouldn't necessarily have to wait for the legal process.

Originally posted by Bluesbro:

Originally posted by deepniner:

Its unfortunate for McDonald, but the niners should sit him at least this week

I agree with this, but I also agree that Kawakami has an agenda. The dude is cynical and bitter with anything 49ers, and it is downright personal between him and Harbaugh.

Ok so last year when that girl said crabtree raped her we should of just benched him...

stfu and gtfo.

The niners and the league can't do anything until the facts are out. He could be innocent. The fairest thing to do is wait until the facts are revealed.

i see people are still comparing ray mas case to aldons case and ray rices case, but there is one giant difference between them known as evidence. Aldons case was pretty much open and shut once he blew over the legal limit all the evidence they needed and honestly more of a black eye to let him play then it would to let ray mac play. Ray Rice also had enough evidence against him for the league in the form of a video that went global in less then 24 hours. Ray Mac's case is different in the fact he was only arrested of suspision. Not so open and shut, or easy to judge by the league. Thats were due process is actually deserved because the police didnt even have enough to charge him directly with felony dv. Just like this whole business argument alot of places arent going to fire you for being arrested under suspision. Just my point of view.

I'm 50/50 on sitting him a game. I wouldn't fault Harbaugh for sitting him a game just to prove a point ans send a message to the team about not putting themselves in these type of situations. But that would also mean that Culliver would need to sit down. And Kilgore was never suspended for his arrest. So If Jim doesn't suspend Ray that would be consistent with how he's handled things so far. So I wouldn't be upset about that either.