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Is D.Jeter the greatest Yankee of all time?

Originally posted by andes14:
One more thing just about the Juan Gonzalez vs. Derek Jeter "debate", I stumbled across a stat, secondary average, that I believe is the best, most telling statistic out there (I used to think a combo of slugging %, BB, and I guess how good of a baserunner you are was the best way to take everything into account, but this kinda compounds it all into one). Here is the formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_average

Jeter's career SecA is .263...Gonzalez' is .336...Jeter has topped .300 in just 2 seasons, Gonzalez did so in 9 seasons, even breaking .400...in case that's too harsh because it doesn't weight singles as much and a higher % of Jeter's hits were singles than most players, even if you remove the subtracting hits part from the formula, Gonzalez still has the edge .631 to .575. Keep in mind this stat takes into account and gives due credit for aspects of the game that Jeter was definitely better at, such as drawing walks & stealing bases, and Gonzalez still is significantly superior in the statistic.

POSTSEASON BATTING STATISTICS
SEASON GP AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1996 4 16 5 7 0 0 5 9 3 2 0 0 .438 .526 1.375 1.901
1998 3 12 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 .083 .083 .167 .250
1999 3 11 1 2 0 0 1 1 1 3 0 0 .182 .250 .455 .705
2001 5 23 4 8 3 0 2 5 0 7 0 0 .348 .348 .739 1.087
Total 15 62 11 18 4 0 8 15 4 15 0 0 .290 .333 .742 1.075

POSTSEASON BATTING STATISTICS
SEASON GP AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1996 15 61 12 22 3 0 1 3 4 13 3 0 .361 .409 .459 .868
1997 5 21 6 7 1 0 2 2 3 5 1 0 .333 .417 .667 1.083
1998 13 51 7 12 1 1 0 3 7 10 3 0 .235 .328 .294 .622
1999 12 48 10 18 3 1 1 4 5 9 3 1 .375 .434 .542 .976
2000 16 63 13 20 2 1 4 9 11 18 1 1 .317 .427 .571 .998
2001 17 62 5 14 1 0 1 4 3 8 0 1 .226 .275 .290 .566
2002 4 16 6 8 0 0 2 3 2 3 0 0 .500 .526 .875 1.401
2003 17 70 10 22 5 0 2 5 7 13 2 0 .314 .385 .471 .856
2004 11 49 8 12 2 0 1 9 7 6 2 0 .245 .339 .347 .686
2005 5 21 4 7 0 0 2 5 1 5 1 0 .333 .348 .619 .967
2006 4 16 4 8 4 0 1 1 1 2 0 1 .500 .529 .938 1.467
2007 4 17 0 3 0 0 0 1 0 4 0 0 .176 .176 .176 .353
2009 15 64 14 22 5 0 3 6 10 11 0 1 .344 .432 .563 .995
2010 9 40 2 10 3 1 0 2 2 10 1 0 .250 .286 .375 .661
Total 147 599 101 185 30 4 20 57 63 117 17 5 .309 .377 .472 .850


whos career would you rather have....regular season stats dont mean s**t. whoa you played nice for some s**ty teams woopdie f**king doo
Originally posted by andes14:
One more thing just about the Juan Gonzalez vs. Derek Jeter "debate", I stumbled across a stat, secondary average, that I believe is the best, most telling statistic out there (I used to think a combo of slugging %, BB, and I guess how good of a baserunner you are was the best way to take everything into account, but this kinda compounds it all into one). Here is the formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_average

Jeter's career SecA is .263...Gonzalez' is .336...Jeter has topped .300 in just 2 seasons, Gonzalez did so in 9 seasons, even breaking .400...in case that's too harsh because it doesn't weight singles as much and a higher % of Jeter's hits were singles than most players, even if you remove the subtracting hits part from the formula, Gonzalez still has the edge .631 to .575. Keep in mind this stat takes into account and gives due credit for aspects of the game that Jeter was definitely better at, such as drawing walks & stealing bases, and Gonzalez still is significantly superior in the statistic.

The best stat out there is wOBA.

Here's the formula.

((BB*0.72)+(HBP*0.75)+(1B*0.90)+(2B*1.24)+(3B*1.56)+(HR*1.95)+(SB*0.25)-(CS*0.50))/PA
  • crzy
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Originally posted by TheNaitch:
Originally posted by andes14:
One more thing just about the Juan Gonzalez vs. Derek Jeter "debate", I stumbled across a stat, secondary average, that I believe is the best, most telling statistic out there (I used to think a combo of slugging %, BB, and I guess how good of a baserunner you are was the best way to take everything into account, but this kinda compounds it all into one). Here is the formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_average

Jeter's career SecA is .263...Gonzalez' is .336...Jeter has topped .300 in just 2 seasons, Gonzalez did so in 9 seasons, even breaking .400...in case that's too harsh because it doesn't weight singles as much and a higher % of Jeter's hits were singles than most players, even if you remove the subtracting hits part from the formula, Gonzalez still has the edge .631 to .575. Keep in mind this stat takes into account and gives due credit for aspects of the game that Jeter was definitely better at, such as drawing walks & stealing bases, and Gonzalez still is significantly superior in the statistic.

The best stat out there is wOBA.

Here's the formula.

((BB*0.72)+(HBP*0.75)+(1B*0.90)+(2B*1.24)+(3B*1.56)+(HR*1.95)+(SB*0.25)-(CS*0.50))/PA


There is no such thing as a best stat. Every stat must be taken in perspective.
  • crzy
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Juan Gonzalez vs Derek Jeter is a strange argument

Gonzalez was obviously a more productive hitter in his prime, but he was a steroids user, so his stats must be placed in perspective. He's in that Palmeiro category.

Derek Jeter is a guranteed Hall of Famer, while Gonzales will absoutlely never make the HOF.

When you combine Jeter's positional scarcity, clutchness, and playoff success, I think he's a better player than Juan Gonzalez.

I'm usually enamored with power, but give me Jeter.
Derek Jeter gave Jessica Alba herpes. That's what I will remember about him.

Derek Jeter Gave Jessica Alba Herpes

[ Edited by Psinex on Aug 4, 2011 at 10:01:03 ]
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by andes14:
One more thing just about the Juan Gonzalez vs. Derek Jeter "debate", I stumbled across a stat, secondary average, that I believe is the best, most telling statistic out there (I used to think a combo of slugging %, BB, and I guess how good of a baserunner you are was the best way to take everything into account, but this kinda compounds it all into one). Here is the formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_average

Jeter's career SecA is .263...Gonzalez' is .336...Jeter has topped .300 in just 2 seasons, Gonzalez did so in 9 seasons, even breaking .400...in case that's too harsh because it doesn't weight singles as much and a higher % of Jeter's hits were singles than most players, even if you remove the subtracting hits part from the formula, Gonzalez still has the edge .631 to .575. Keep in mind this stat takes into account and gives due credit for aspects of the game that Jeter was definitely better at, such as drawing walks & stealing bases, and Gonzalez still is significantly superior in the statistic.

POSTSEASON BATTING STATISTICS
SEASON GP AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1996 4 16 5 7 0 0 5 9 3 2 0 0 .438 .526 1.375 1.901
1998 3 12 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 .083 .083 .167 .250
1999 3 11 1 2 0 0 1 1 1 3 0 0 .182 .250 .455 .705
2001 5 23 4 8 3 0 2 5 0 7 0 0 .348 .348 .739 1.087
Total 15 62 11 18 4 0 8 15 4 15 0 0 .290 .333 .742 1.075

POSTSEASON BATTING STATISTICS
SEASON GP AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1996 15 61 12 22 3 0 1 3 4 13 3 0 .361 .409 .459 .868
1997 5 21 6 7 1 0 2 2 3 5 1 0 .333 .417 .667 1.083
1998 13 51 7 12 1 1 0 3 7 10 3 0 .235 .328 .294 .622
1999 12 48 10 18 3 1 1 4 5 9 3 1 .375 .434 .542 .976
2000 16 63 13 20 2 1 4 9 11 18 1 1 .317 .427 .571 .998
2001 17 62 5 14 1 0 1 4 3 8 0 1 .226 .275 .290 .566
2002 4 16 6 8 0 0 2 3 2 3 0 0 .500 .526 .875 1.401
2003 17 70 10 22 5 0 2 5 7 13 2 0 .314 .385 .471 .856
2004 11 49 8 12 2 0 1 9 7 6 2 0 .245 .339 .347 .686
2005 5 21 4 7 0 0 2 5 1 5 1 0 .333 .348 .619 .967
2006 4 16 4 8 4 0 1 1 1 2 0 1 .500 .529 .938 1.467
2007 4 17 0 3 0 0 0 1 0 4 0 0 .176 .176 .176 .353
2009 15 64 14 22 5 0 3 6 10 11 0 1 .344 .432 .563 .995
2010 9 40 2 10 3 1 0 2 2 10 1 0 .250 .286 .375 .661
Total 147 599 101 185 30 4 20 57 63 117 17 5 .309 .377 .472 .850


whos career would you rather have....regular season stats dont mean s**t. whoa you played nice for some s**ty teams woopdie f**king doo

Lol, so because Jeter had the good fortune of playing for a better team and had more opportunities to go to the playoffs and accumulate postseason stats, he's better? Obviously if Jeter played for the Rangers and Juan Gon played for NYY then you could just flip flop the argument since Gonzalez would have way more postseason appearances. Besides, Jeter by and large had similar if not slightly worse postseason production compared to his regular season production. It's not like he was a completely different animal in the playoffs. And the few times Gonzalez and his s**tty teams were fortunate enough to make the playoffs, he produced. .290 BA, 8 homers, and 15 RBI in just 15 career playoff games. His postseason slugging was nearly 200 points higher than his regular season slugging.

I think a huge indictment on Jeter is his slugging %. Only .449 for his career and only one year of at least .485. You don't have to be Barry Bonds to have a good slugging. Plenty of guys that aren't power freaks post good sluggings such as Shane Victorino, Alex Gordon, etc. The fact that he's a shortstop shouldn't excuse him either. Look at Jose Reyes' (.513), Troy Tulowitzki's (.552, .568, .509 the last 3 years), etc. There are 2 TEAMS that have higher sluggings than Jeter had over his career (Boston and Texas), and in most years there are 2-5 or so teams that that is the case for. The bottom line is he is a singles hitter- 74% of his career hits have been singles and I just don't think singles are a huge deal- it takes at least 3 of 'em, sometimes 4, to score a single run. If he didn't play his whole career for such a great team with great bats behind him to drive him in, no one would care about him and his singles. If he played his whole career for Toronto or Pittsburgh or something like that instead, you think he'd have the same reputation? He's just blessed to have played for the Yanks.
  • crzy
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SLG% is not the end be all of stats. Power is only 1 of the 5 tools.

And yes, singles hitters tend be overrated throughout history. But Jeter is a complete player and a stud.

The opening post of this thread obviously overrates him, but let's put Jeter's career in proper perspective.

His "legend" is inflated by the Yankees and New York media, but his talent on the field can't be questioned.
I'd put him in the top three.

The Babe is one of the top three players......of all time.
  • crzy
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Originally posted by TonyStarks:
I'd put him in the top three.

The Babe is one of the top three players......of all time.

No. Absolutely not a top 3 Yankee.
Originally posted by crzy:
SLG% is not the end be all of stats. Power is only 1 of the 5 tools.

And yes, singles hitters tend be overrated throughout history. But Jeter is a complete player and a stud.

The opening post of this thread obviously overrates him, but let's put Jeter's career in proper perspective.

His "legend" is inflated by the Yankees and New York media, but his talent on the field can't be questioned.

Slugging doesn't take into account walks or stolen bases, but other than that I think it's a great stat (better than OPS because on base is extremely skewed as it increases if you ground into a fielder's choice). But like I said, there are a ton of guys that have posted better sluggings without being power hitters and cranking out 40-50 homers and I pointed out examples such as Reyes, Victorino, and Gordon. And that there are usually a handful of TEAMS with better slugging %'s than Jeter's career slugging. There are 45 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging %. There are 66 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's career slugging %. That's pretty crazy. Sure he's a shortstop, but like I said, so are guys like Reyes and Tulowitzki- in fact there are 5 shortstops right now that have a higher 2011 slugging % than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging. I mean, for crying out loud, freakin' Jhonny Peralta has 2 seasons with a slugging above .520. A guy like Hanley Ramirez has 3 seasons slugging at least .540...Jeter has 1 above .483 (in way more seasons). That does speak volumes IMO.

An interesting example to disprove this apparent theory that only power/home run hitters have good sluggings: it took Ty Cobb nearly 100 at bats to hit a homer, yet his career slugging over 24 seasons was .512 (nearly 30 points higher than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging) including 15 seasons with a slugging better than Jeter's 2nd best and 13 seasons above .500, topping out at .621..

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 12:16:05 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by crzy:
SLG% is not the end be all of stats. Power is only 1 of the 5 tools.

And yes, singles hitters tend be overrated throughout history. But Jeter is a complete player and a stud.

The opening post of this thread obviously overrates him, but let's put Jeter's career in proper perspective.

His "legend" is inflated by the Yankees and New York media, but his talent on the field can't be questioned.

Slugging doesn't take into account walks or stolen bases, but other than that I think it's a great stat (better than OPS because on base is extremely skewed as it increases if you ground into a fielder's choice). But like I said, there are a ton of guys that have posted better sluggings without being power hitters and cranking out 40-50 homers and I pointed out examples such as Reyes, Victorino, and Gordon. And that there are usually a handful of TEAMS with better slugging %'s than Jeter's career slugging. There are 45 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging %. There are 66 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's career slugging %. That's pretty crazy. Sure he's a shortstop, but like I said, so are guys like Reyes and Tulowitzki- in fact there are 5 shortstops right now that have a higher 2011 slugging % than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging. I mean, for crying out loud, freakin' Jhonny Peralta has 2 seasons with a slugging above .520. A guy like Hanley Ramirez has 3 seasons slugging at least .540...Jeter has 1 above .483. That does speak volumes IMO.

You really think that your On Base Percentage is positively impacted if you ground into a fielder's choice?
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by crzy:
SLG% is not the end be all of stats. Power is only 1 of the 5 tools.

And yes, singles hitters tend be overrated throughout history. But Jeter is a complete player and a stud.

The opening post of this thread obviously overrates him, but let's put Jeter's career in proper perspective.

His "legend" is inflated by the Yankees and New York media, but his talent on the field can't be questioned.

Slugging doesn't take into account walks or stolen bases, but other than that I think it's a great stat (better than OPS because on base is extremely skewed as it increases if you ground into a fielder's choice). But like I said, there are a ton of guys that have posted better sluggings without being power hitters and cranking out 40-50 homers and I pointed out examples such as Reyes, Victorino, and Gordon. And that there are usually a handful of TEAMS with better slugging %'s than Jeter's career slugging. There are 45 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging %. There are 66 guys right now that have a 2011 slugging % better than Jeter's career slugging %. That's pretty crazy. Sure he's a shortstop, but like I said, so are guys like Reyes and Tulowitzki- in fact there are 5 shortstops right now that have a higher 2011 slugging % than Jeter's 2nd best single season slugging. I mean, for crying out loud, freakin' Jhonny Peralta has 2 seasons with a slugging above .520. A guy like Hanley Ramirez has 3 seasons slugging at least .540...Jeter has 1 above .483. That does speak volumes IMO.

You really think that your On Base Percentage is positively impacted if you ground into a fielder's choice?

I heard it was, maybe I'm mistaken on that. But it's still skewed in the exact same way batting average is- it treats a single the same way as a double, triple, or homer.

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 11:56:04 ]
  • crzy
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andes14, you're not making any sense. How is slugging a better stat than OPS?

Slugging only takes into account power. OPS incorporates slugging AND takes into account on base ability. It's a broader stat, takes more things into account, and is therefore a better tool for comparing players.
Originally posted by crzy:
andes14, you're not making any sense. How is slugging a better stat than OPS?

Slugging only takes into account power. OPS incorporates slugging AND takes into account on base ability. It's a broader stat, takes more things into account, and is therefore a better tool for comparing players.

Ok, let's look at OPS for a second. I'll admit his OPS rankings are better than his slugging rankings thanks to all his singles, but here's where we're at with that. He's got a career .832 OPS with only 1 season above .900...there are 15 guys currently with a 2011 OPS above .900 and 45 above .832...and teams occasionally will have an OPS above .832.

In terms of how it relates in comparing him to Juan Gonzalez- Juan's career OPS was over 70 points higher and he also had 8 seasons with an OPS over .900...but like I said, his significant advantages in secA (which incorporates and gives due credit for things Jeter was better at such as walks and stolen bases), even when you don't subtract hits (which is EXTREMELY beneficial to Jeter), speak volumes.

And just for s**ts and giggles, Juan's career slugging was 112 points higher with 10 seasons being better than Jeter's 2nd best and 8 seasons being better than Jeter's best (4 of which were above .600)

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 13:06:25 ]
lol

crzy's the sh*t.