The best team never to win an NBA title

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Oh, you mean in a league with very little front court domination? Yes, he was lucky to be in his prime in the 90's. I'm not saying he isn't a top 3 player of all time. Personally, I don't think he's the best player ever. He doesn't win 6 if he were in his prime in the 80's.

Take a look at Kobe, who would have won more than 5 rings if it weren't for a dominant big man named Tim Duncan. Jordan never had to deal with that kind of player. You can say Ewing all you want but at that point, Ewing was nothing more than a 10 foot shooter who occasionally took it in strong.

Now, where was all the talent during Jordan's ear? In the West where they all battled each other out and sometimes out of contention such as Hakeem and Robinson. What happened the year after Jordan's second retirement. The "great" team he battled against in the East playoffs, the Knicks, went to the Finals (without Ewing) and got beat down by the Spurs.

Jordan was fortunate enough that all the talent was in the Western Conference and when it came to the Finals, the Bulls had favorable mathups. Kobe/Shaq Lakers would have beaten some of those Bulls teams and so would have the Spurs.

Oh god. The years Tim won 2 of his titles were 05 and 07 when the Lakers were not even in contention. The reason Kobe didnt win those years arent because of Tim Duncan, it's because of the fact that he let Shaq leave and LA didnt replace him until Pau Gasol came along. The only year Duncan straight up cockblocked Kobe is 2003. The other years SA won (99 lockout year) was before Kobe established himself as a great player, and when Kobe had no help, which was partially Kobe's own fault.

I will go ahead and say that if the Bulls had come back for 99 with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman and played in the lockout year they would've won it again over DRob/Timmy.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

During the early 90s when MJ was beating NY's ass in the EC Semis and finals? That was Ewings prime dude. He was averaging between 24-26 PPG on over 50% shooting and grabbing around 11 rebounds per game. Go look it up yourself: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Oh, you mean in a league with very little front court domination? Yes, he was lucky to be in his prime in the 90's. I'm not saying he isn't a top 3 player of all time. Personally, I don't think he's the best player ever. He doesn't win 6 if he were in his prime in the 80's.

Take a look at Kobe, who would have won more than 5 rings if it weren't for a dominant big man named Tim Duncan. Jordan never had to deal with that kind of player. You can say Ewing all you want but at that point, Ewing was nothing more than a 10 foot shooter who occasionally took it in strong.

Now, where was all the talent during Jordan's ear? In the West where they all battled each other out and sometimes out of contention such as Hakeem and Robinson. What happened the year after Jordan's second retirement. The "great" team he battled against in the East playoffs, the Knicks, went to the Finals (without Ewing) and got beat down by the Spurs.

Jordan was fortunate enough that all the talent was in the Western Conference and when it came to the Finals, the Bulls had favorable mathups. Kobe/Shaq Lakers would have beaten some of those Bulls teams and so would have the Spurs.

Oh god. The years Tim won 2 of his titles were 05 and 07 when the Lakers were not even in contention. The reason Kobe didnt win those years arent because of Tim Duncan, it's because of the fact that he let Shaq leave and LA didnt replace him until Pau Gasol came along. The only year Duncan straight up cockblocked Kobe is 2003. The other years SA won (99 lockout year) was before Kobe established himself as a great player, and when Kobe had no help, which was partially Kobe's own fault.

I will go ahead and say that if the Bulls had come back for 99 with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman and played in the lockout year they would've won it again over DRob/Timmy.

Check their head to head matchups with the Spurs in the regular season.

The Western Conference in the 90's was the talent heavy conference. It just so happened that the Bulls were fortunate to get the favorable matchup out of the West. I always got pissed when a small team from the West made it to the Finals during those years. That Bulls team doesn't get to the Finals if as much talent was in the East. Talent was what allowed Jordan and Pippen to do more than a team like the Pacers and Knicks who had not one player to match the talent of Jordan and Pippen or to match Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq.

You actually believe if Shaq stays in ORL, that ORL wouldn't have collected more talent and beaten the Bulls...again?

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

If the Suns had Kurt Thomas instead of Quentin Richardson in the 04-05 season (the trade done for one another was done at the end of the year), they might have had a shot at beating Duncan (that was the one year they had Nash and Joe Johnson playing together). A Nash/Johnson/Marion/Stoudemire/Thomas lineup would have been unreal. You wouldn't be going small as Marion would be able to play the 3 & Amare the 4, and K. Thomas would add some much needed interior D and rebounding (handy when battling the Duncan led Spurs). That was arguably the best season in the career of, in my opinion, the league's 6th best point guard of all time. Johnson was one of the very best shooters in the league that year, Marion was 26 and in his prime averaging 19 and 11, and that was arguably the best season of Amare, perhaps 1 of the 5 best bigs of the past 7-8 years.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

During the early 90s when MJ was beating NY's ass in the EC Semis and finals? That was Ewings prime dude. He was averaging between 24-26 PPG on over 50% shooting and grabbing around 11 rebounds per game. Go look it up yourself: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html

Early 90's, yeah but for Jordan's 2nd 3-peat, Ewing was nothing but spot shooter or relied heavily on that fade-away. Also, this is the same Ewing that was beaten by Hakeem Olajuwon? 1995-1998 (3 years) was when Shaq went into his prime and Ewing declined. Bulls don't make 3 straight if Shaq stays with ORL.

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

If the Suns had Kurt Thomas instead of Quentin Richardson in the 04-05 season (the trade done for one another was done at the end of the year), they might have had a shot at beating Duncan (that was the one year they had Nash and Joe Johnson playing together). A Nash/Johnson/Marion/Stoudemire/Thomas lineup would have been unreal. You wouldn't be going small as Marion would be able to play the 3 & Amare the 4, and K. Thomas would add some much needed interior D and rebounding (handy when battling the Duncan led Spurs). That was arguably the best season in the career of, in my opinion, the league's 6th best point guard of all time. Johnson was one of the very best shooters in the league that year, Marion was 26 and in his prime averaging 19 and 11, and that was arguably the best season of Amare, perhaps 1 of the 5 best bigs of the past 7-8 years.

If Joe Johnson doesn't get his orbital bone broken in the previous series against the Mavs, the series against the Spurs could've gone completely differently, but I don't want to play the 'What if' game.

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

If the Suns had Kurt Thomas instead of Quentin Richardson in the 04-05 season (the trade done for one another was done at the end of the year), they might have had a shot at beating Duncan (that was the one year they had Nash and Joe Johnson playing together). A Nash/Johnson/Marion/Stoudemire/Thomas lineup would have been unreal. You wouldn't be going small as Marion would be able to play the 3 & Amare the 4, and K. Thomas would add some much needed interior D and rebounding (handy when battling the Duncan led Spurs). That was arguably the best season in the career of, in my opinion, the league's 6th best point guard of all time. Johnson was one of the very best shooters in the league that year, Marion was 26 and in his prime averaging 19 and 11, and that was arguably the best season of Amare, perhaps 1 of the 5 best bigs of the past 7-8 years.

If Joe Johnson doesn't get his orbital bone broken in the previous series against the Mavs, the series against the Spurs could've gone completely differently, but I don't want to play the 'What if' game.

Hey, we've had plenty of years with D. Rob and his back or Anderson (2001 our 2nd leading scorer) and his shoulder or Manu and his whatever is going on with him.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

If the Suns had Kurt Thomas instead of Quentin Richardson in the 04-05 season (the trade done for one another was done at the end of the year), they might have had a shot at beating Duncan (that was the one year they had Nash and Joe Johnson playing together). A Nash/Johnson/Marion/Stoudemire/Thomas lineup would have been unreal. You wouldn't be going small as Marion would be able to play the 3 & Amare the 4, and K. Thomas would add some much needed interior D and rebounding (handy when battling the Duncan led Spurs). That was arguably the best season in the career of, in my opinion, the league's 6th best point guard of all time. Johnson was one of the very best shooters in the league that year, Marion was 26 and in his prime averaging 19 and 11, and that was arguably the best season of Amare, perhaps 1 of the 5 best bigs of the past 7-8 years.

If Joe Johnson doesn't get his orbital bone broken in the previous series against the Mavs, the series against the Spurs could've gone completely differently, but I don't want to play the 'What if' game.

Hey, we've had plenty of years with D. Rob and his back or Anderson (2001 our 2nd leading scorer) and his shoulder or Manu and his whatever is going on with him.

And your point originally was that without Duncan Kobe wins more titles. But Kobe wasnt even on a good team when SA won 2 of their 4 titles. The only one he blocked was the 2003 one. The Suns were blocked 2 or 3 times by the Spurs. Your argument of Kobe would have more if it werent for SA, you could say that about MJ if the Bad Boy Pistons did not have Joe Dumars or some such like that that he'd have more titles. You could say that if MJ didnt retire he'd have 7 and possibly 8. You can say that. The only thing that matters is what actually happened.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by nicedraw94080:

Good Lord.

Let me guess , Pippen should be in this picture too?

No. It's that...

1) Some of the people included are ridiculous. Dan Majerle, Rik Smits, John Starks? Was Hersey Hawkins not available?

2) The Bulls won 6 titles. Most of the legit players in that pic had careers that spanned 2-3 times that long. I mean hell, Stockton & Malone were together for EIGHTEEN YEARS and only won the West twice. But it was MJ and MJ alone that prevented them from winning titles.

Most of these players were scoring guards. Just so happens Jordan was lucky to be in a league without any dominant Front Court players and the ones who were supremely dominant were power forwards in the West who ended up knocking each other out and even their teams had undersized Guards.

Jordan was the lucky one?

Yet, Jordan was the guard that never had any dominant front court players on his championship rosters besides maybe Rodman who was one dimensional.

Yeah Joecool pretty much just lost his credibility with that comment. Speaking of dominant front court players, back in MJ's day you had Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, etc. There is not a single center in today's game as good as any of those guys. Dwight's good but he's not as good as those. Maybe Ewing. But Ewing had a better supporting cast then Dwight. MJ got past Shaq and Ewing. those are 2 pretty good frontcourt players.

Oh, you mean the Big men in the Western Conference? Kobe would have more than 5 if it weren't for Tim Duncan.

Also, during those times, Ewing was not what he was. He was a 10-foot shooter and very slow. It took him 2 days to drive 7 feet.

No, the Suns would have two if it weren't for Duncan.

EXACTLY. The Suns were the team that kept beating Kobe in the first round during 06 and 07 anyway.

If the Suns had Kurt Thomas instead of Quentin Richardson in the 04-05 season (the trade done for one another was done at the end of the year), they might have had a shot at beating Duncan (that was the one year they had Nash and Joe Johnson playing together). A Nash/Johnson/Marion/Stoudemire/Thomas lineup would have been unreal. You wouldn't be going small as Marion would be able to play the 3 & Amare the 4, and K. Thomas would add some much needed interior D and rebounding (handy when battling the Duncan led Spurs). That was arguably the best season in the career of, in my opinion, the league's 6th best point guard of all time. Johnson was one of the very best shooters in the league that year, Marion was 26 and in his prime averaging 19 and 11, and that was arguably the best season of Amare, perhaps 1 of the 5 best bigs of the past 7-8 years.

If Joe Johnson doesn't get his orbital bone broken in the previous series against the Mavs, the series against the Spurs could've gone completely differently, but I don't want to play the 'What if' game.

Hey, we've had plenty of years with D. Rob and his back or Anderson (2001 our 2nd leading scorer) and his shoulder or Manu and his whatever is going on with him.

And your point originally was that without Duncan Kobe wins more titles. But Kobe wasnt even on a good team when SA won 2 of their 4 titles. The only one he blocked was the 2003 one. The Suns were blocked 2 or 3 times by the Spurs. Your argument of Kobe would have more if it werent for SA, you could say that about MJ if the Bad Boy Pistons did not have Joe Dumars or some such like that that he'd have more titles. You could say that if MJ didnt retire he'd have 7 and possibly 8. You can say that. The only thing that matters is what actually happened.

My argument is that in the 90's, the western conference had all the teams that had the front court power and even shaq moved that way for Jordan's 5th and 6th title. Jordan, for his 4th-6th title, didn't have much of a front court power to content against. Even the Pistons team was when quite a few of those players were well onto their decline.

Jordan was fortunate to be in the right conference at the right time. 6 titles are 6 titles but a lot people hold that to the reason why he's the best ever.

I wonder how many Jordan would have had if there was a team as strong as the 80's Celtics. I wonder how many Magic would have had if the Celtics were repeatedly knocked out by another Eastern team?

But we have gone complete off topic from this thread. I still say the year INDY took the Bulls to 7 games is the best team not to win a title, which MJ beat. A point of the Shaq Magic could also be made because if he had stayed with the team, they would have won a title.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Kings were awesome but just weren't athletic enough which is why the ball always seemed to not bounce in their favor. They also didn't have the "clutch" player as Peja and Webber weren't critical game situation guys.

Not athletic enough? I disagree. That team was lauded for its uptempo, quick play. Chris Webber, pre-injury, was one of the most athletic PF's in NBA history. Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby (only his 4th season), Gerald Wallace (if you want to go that far)...all athletic. Athleticism was not why we lost to the Lakers; we had more.

8-man rotation of...
Mike Bibby-Doug Christie-Bobby Jackson
Peja Stojakovic-Chris Webber-Hedo Turkoglu
Vlade Divac-Scot Pollard
with Gerald Wallace.

I'll take that team against any non-championship team of my generation.

Originally posted by SacRock14:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Kings were awesome but just weren't athletic enough which is why the ball always seemed to not bounce in their favor. They also didn't have the "clutch" player as Peja and Webber weren't critical game situation guys.

Not athletic enough? I disagree. That team was lauded for its uptempo, quick play. Chris Webber, pre-injury, was one of the most athletic PF's in NBA history. Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby (only his 4th season), Gerald Wallace (if you want to go that far)...all athletic. Athleticism was not why we lost to the Lakers; we had more.

8-man rotation of...
Mike Bibby-Doug Christie-Bobby Jackson
Peja Stojakovic-Chris Webber-Hedo Turkoglu
Vlade Divac-Scot Pollard
with Gerald Wallace.

I'll take that team against any non-championship team of my generation.

Yes that team deserved to beat LAL, no that team would not have beaten any of the squads that Jordan beat in his 2nd 3peat.

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by SacRock14:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Kings were awesome but just weren't athletic enough which is why the ball always seemed to not bounce in their favor. They also didn't have the "clutch" player as Peja and Webber weren't critical game situation guys.

Not athletic enough? I disagree. That team was lauded for its uptempo, quick play. Chris Webber, pre-injury, was one of the most athletic PF's in NBA history. Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby (only his 4th season), Gerald Wallace (if you want to go that far)...all athletic. Athleticism was not why we lost to the Lakers; we had more.

8-man rotation of...
Mike Bibby-Doug Christie-Bobby Jackson
Peja Stojakovic-Chris Webber-Hedo Turkoglu
Vlade Divac-Scot Pollard
with Gerald Wallace.

I'll take that team against any non-championship team of my generation.

Yes that team deserved to beat LAL, no that team would not have beaten any of the squads that Jordan beat in his 2nd 3peat.

Obviously impossible to say, but I maintain my stance. The Kings were actually very similar to the Sonics team. Scoring PG, role playing SG, Euro shooting SF, athletic stud PF.

Jazz were a damn good team that Sac battled many times. Took the 98/99 Jazz (basically same lineup as the Finals team the year before) to the limit with no Bibby, no Christie, J-Will at PG and Peja as a minor bench player. Took a Stockton buzzer beater in Game 4 and an overtime win in Game 5 to beat Sac 3-2.

Perhaps a WhatIfSports tourney to decide it all?

Originally posted by SacRock14:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by SacRock14:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Kings were awesome but just weren't athletic enough which is why the ball always seemed to not bounce in their favor. They also didn't have the "clutch" player as Peja and Webber weren't critical game situation guys.

Not athletic enough? I disagree. That team was lauded for its uptempo, quick play. Chris Webber, pre-injury, was one of the most athletic PF's in NBA history. Doug Christie, Bobby Jackson, Mike Bibby (only his 4th season), Gerald Wallace (if you want to go that far)...all athletic. Athleticism was not why we lost to the Lakers; we had more.

8-man rotation of...
Mike Bibby-Doug Christie-Bobby Jackson
Peja Stojakovic-Chris Webber-Hedo Turkoglu
Vlade Divac-Scot Pollard
with Gerald Wallace.

I'll take that team against any non-championship team of my generation.

Yes that team deserved to beat LAL, no that team would not have beaten any of the squads that Jordan beat in his 2nd 3peat.

Obviously impossible to say, but I maintain my stance. The Kings were actually very similar to the Sonics team. Scoring PG, role playing SG, Euro shooting SF, athletic stud PF.

Jazz were a damn good team that Sac battled many times. Took the 98/99 Jazz (basically same lineup as the Finals team the year before) to the limit with no Bibby, no Christie, J-Will at PG and Peja as a minor bench player. Took a Stockton buzzer beater in Game 4 and an overtime win in Game 5 to beat Sac 3-2.

Perhaps a WhatIfSports tourney to decide it all?

Let's not get carried away by trying to put Bibby in the same boat as Payton. Hawkins was significantly better than Christie, Schrempf and Peja were about even. Their only clear advantage was at center.