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ECF: HEAT (3) VS. BULLS(1)

Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

Noah and Boozer missing time was a big deal though. They're the starting bigs on the team and never really got to gel together. So we had the healthiest team all season, problem is, the two that were injured for were our starters.
I do get what you're saying though, and I do believe stats were looked at to determine the MVP. I guess the overall team record and the makeup of the team played a bigger role this go-around.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Haha yea, I don't even understand why ppl care that a player is a douche?

Anyway, I agree that Lebron didn't have as good a game last night offensively - but when you play 44+ minutes out of 48 in a tie game - it's tough to be + for the game. Derrick Rose played fewer minutes than Lebron and was completely gassed by the end of regulation, and Lebron was giving 110% on the defensive end as well, whereas Rose is guarding Bibby or Chalmers mostly. That's been the most impressive thing about James. He is playin' ridiculous amounts of minutes, and is still great in the 4th quarter.

...and again, when it really mattered - Lebron delivered, on both ends of the floor, scoring wise and making the right passes, and then playing terrific defense on Rose down the stretch. Honestly, Rose has gotten maybe couple of easy baskets in each of the last 3 games and that's it. Miami's defense in playoffs is one of the best I've seen in recent times.

In the last 3 games, Bulls/Rose haven't figured out what to do. Does he need to be more aggressive? Does he need to pass the ball? They have tried both, and neither strategy resulted in a win, or found much success in the 4th quarter. Miami's D is the single biggest reason for the playoff success so far, and it starts with D-Wade and Lebron James.

This is the best I've seen Lebron play defense. He has been a pretty decent defender last few years, but he has been special this year...and that has def. hurt his efficiency on the other side a little bit - but I'll take that when your defense can restrict the other team around 90 pts consistently.

I disagree that he's been coming through down the stretch on both ends when it matters. Miami got exactly 2 points in the last 2 minutes of regulation, on a look that Bosh created on his own. This included an offensive foul with 8 seconds left, when LeBron had no business doing that with that much time left on the clock and it jeopardized the game. Neither he nor Miami has been very good in crunch time in this series on the offensive end, but the Bulls have been much worse. He's been great on the other side on the defensive end, as the entire team has been in 4th quarters and in the clutch. When the other team isn't scoring at all, eventually you're going to make some plays on the offensive end that win the game.

Miami's D IS the biggest single reason for their playoff success. I agree. The Bulls are averaging 15.7 points per 4th quarter in the last 3 games. LeBron has been phenomenal defensively, but so has Wade, Anthony, & Chalmers. Rose being God awful is the difference in this series, and (as you said) he's being mostly guarded by Bibby/Chalmers and whichever big is defending the pick and roll.

James in the 4th quarter this series:

Game 1: 3 of teams 19 points: loss
Game 2: 10 of the teams 14 points
Game 3: 10 of teams 28 points
Game 4: 7 of the 22 teams points and 6 of teams 16 points in OT

In the last three games, James has been the most consistent offensive player for the Heat in the 4th quarter. Championship caliber teams always have a different player here and there who comes through during the series (Haslem, Bosh, and Miller) but James has been the only consistent player in just about every game in the 4th quarter which is what teams with great players always have.

Of course he's gonna put individual numbers up when he has the ball in his hands as much as he does. Look at the team points in each of those 4th quarters. Aside from Game 3, when he was great, all low totals. No one else is gonna be all that productive in 4th quarters when he dominates the ball like that. Bosh has been consistent and effective when he's gotten the ball in this series...he's just not getting it much in the 4th quarter. As a big, he can't pass the ball to himself.

That can be said for any player though. It's not like he's taking high volume of shots. He is shooting well also. Ever since the end of the Boston series, it almost seems as though his primary focus is on defense until the 4th where he turns it on at both ends. There's a lot of other things he does that MIA would not win without. He is actually having a presence in the key on the defensive end.

He's averaging 7 rbs per game this series, 6.75 assists, 2.25 steals, 2 blocks, and 25.25 pts per game.

The bold is very impressive since the second leading blocker in the post season was Tim Duncan with 2.5 per game. In steals, the highest ranked player was Manu with 2.6. Lebron is having a great series considering how gritty these games have been at the defensive end.

Exactly. And as you pointed out he is the best scorer in the 4th and overtime. He is the closer. Not to mention he can play 4 positions on the floor. 1,2,3 and 4. Both offensively and defensively. And he is tremendous at defense. He's having a huge effect on Rose. LA saying Rose is sucking has a lot to do with Lebron at the end of the game gurading him. He has the feet, speed and athleticism to guard him. And a 6'8" frame to use length to bother him. Lebron is absolutely phenomenal. Clearly the best player in the series when you look at both ends.

Lebron has only guarded Rose down the stretch, so you can't give Lebron all the credit for stoppin' Rose. Miami Heat as a team has done a great job of keepin' Rose out of the paint.

But again, Lebron has been a HUGE part of that team defense success. This is why you see Deng open so often...because Lebron and Anthony are leaving their guys and making it difficult for Rose to make a shot. The thing is, Lebron's foot speed enables him to get back on Deng majority of the times - plus Deng isn't the most consistent shooter - which makes it possible for Lebron to leave him and bother Rose throughout the game.

The beautiful thing Spols has done is, at times Lebron stays with Deng, and instead Wade comes off Brewer (or whoever he is guarding) to do the same thing. When you have two guys like Lebron and Wade - you've the luxury of doing that - and Rose NOT being a great passer yet isn't able to make the right pass always.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Haha yea, I don't even understand why ppl care that a player is a douche?

Anyway, I agree that Lebron didn't have as good a game last night offensively - but when you play 44+ minutes out of 48 in a tie game - it's tough to be + for the game. Derrick Rose played fewer minutes than Lebron and was completely gassed by the end of regulation, and Lebron was giving 110% on the defensive end as well, whereas Rose is guarding Bibby or Chalmers mostly. That's been the most impressive thing about James. He is playin' ridiculous amounts of minutes, and is still great in the 4th quarter.

...and again, when it really mattered - Lebron delivered, on both ends of the floor, scoring wise and making the right passes, and then playing terrific defense on Rose down the stretch. Honestly, Rose has gotten maybe couple of easy baskets in each of the last 3 games and that's it. Miami's defense in playoffs is one of the best I've seen in recent times.

In the last 3 games, Bulls/Rose haven't figured out what to do. Does he need to be more aggressive? Does he need to pass the ball? They have tried both, and neither strategy resulted in a win, or found much success in the 4th quarter. Miami's D is the single biggest reason for the playoff success so far, and it starts with D-Wade and Lebron James.

This is the best I've seen Lebron play defense. He has been a pretty decent defender last few years, but he has been special this year...and that has def. hurt his efficiency on the other side a little bit - but I'll take that when your defense can restrict the other team around 90 pts consistently.

I disagree that he's been coming through down the stretch on both ends when it matters. Miami got exactly 2 points in the last 2 minutes of regulation, on a look that Bosh created on his own. This included an offensive foul with 8 seconds left, when LeBron had no business doing that with that much time left on the clock and it jeopardized the game. Neither he nor Miami has been very good in crunch time in this series on the offensive end, but the Bulls have been much worse. He's been great on the other side on the defensive end, as the entire team has been in 4th quarters and in the clutch. When the other team isn't scoring at all, eventually you're going to make some plays on the offensive end that win the game.

Miami's D IS the biggest single reason for their playoff success. I agree. The Bulls are averaging 15.7 points per 4th quarter in the last 3 games. LeBron has been phenomenal defensively, but so has Wade, Anthony, & Chalmers. Rose being God awful is the difference in this series, and (as you said) he's being mostly guarded by Bibby/Chalmers and whichever big is defending the pick and roll.

James in the 4th quarter this series:

Game 1: 3 of teams 19 points: loss
Game 2: 10 of the teams 14 points
Game 3: 10 of teams 28 points
Game 4: 7 of the 22 teams points and 6 of teams 16 points in OT

In the last three games, James has been the most consistent offensive player for the Heat in the 4th quarter. Championship caliber teams always have a different player here and there who comes through during the series (Haslem, Bosh, and Miller) but James has been the only consistent player in just about every game in the 4th quarter which is what teams with great players always have.

Of course he's gonna put individual numbers up when he has the ball in his hands as much as he does. Look at the team points in each of those 4th quarters. Aside from Game 3, when he was great, all low totals. No one else is gonna be all that productive in 4th quarters when he dominates the ball like that. Bosh has been consistent and effective when he's gotten the ball in this series...he's just not getting it much in the 4th quarter. As a big, he can't pass the ball to himself.

That can be said for any player though. It's not like he's taking high volume of shots. He is shooting well also. Ever since the end of the Boston series, it almost seems as though his primary focus is on defense until the 4th where he turns it on at both ends. There's a lot of other things he does that MIA would not win without. He is actually having a presence in the key on the defensive end.

He's averaging 7 rbs per game this series, 6.75 assists, 2.25 steals, 2 blocks, and 25.25 pts per game.

The bold is very impressive since the second leading blocker in the post season was Tim Duncan with 2.5 per game. In steals, the highest ranked player was Manu with 2.6. Lebron is having a great series considering how gritty these games have been at the defensive end.

Exactly. And as you pointed out he is the best scorer in the 4th and overtime. He is the closer. Not to mention he can play 4 positions on the floor. 1,2,3 and 4. Both offensively and defensively. And he is tremendous at defense. He's having a huge effect on Rose. LA saying Rose is sucking has a lot to do with Lebron at the end of the game gurading him. He has the feet, speed and athleticism to guard him. And a 6'8" frame to use length to bother him. Lebron is absolutely phenomenal. Clearly the best player in the series when you look at both ends.

Lebron has only guarded Rose down the stretch, so you can't give Lebron all the credit for stoppin' Rose. Miami Heat as a team has done a great job of keepin' Rose out of the paint.

But again, Lebron has been a HUGE part of that team defense success. This is why you see Deng open so often...because Lebron and Anthony are leaving their guys and making it difficult for Rose to make a shot. The thing is, Lebron's foot speed enables him to get back on Deng majority of the times - plus Deng isn't the most consistent shooter - which makes it possible for Lebron to leave him and bother Rose throughout the game.

The beautiful thing Spols has done is, at times Lebron stays with Deng, and instead Wade comes off Brewer (or whoever he is guarding) to do the same thing. When you have two guys like Lebron and Wade - you've the luxury of doing that - and Rose NOT being a great passer yet isn't able to make the right pass always.

I am giving him credit for down the stretch guarding Rose. The team overall guards him before that. Because they don't want Lebron in foul trouble. But the closer on defense is Lebron. You put him on the best guy and close out the game. He's the closer on offense too...
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.
[ Edited by andes14 on May 26, 2011 at 11:06 AM ]
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Haha yea, I don't even understand why ppl care that a player is a douche?

Anyway, I agree that Lebron didn't have as good a game last night offensively - but when you play 44+ minutes out of 48 in a tie game - it's tough to be + for the game. Derrick Rose played fewer minutes than Lebron and was completely gassed by the end of regulation, and Lebron was giving 110% on the defensive end as well, whereas Rose is guarding Bibby or Chalmers mostly. That's been the most impressive thing about James. He is playin' ridiculous amounts of minutes, and is still great in the 4th quarter.

...and again, when it really mattered - Lebron delivered, on both ends of the floor, scoring wise and making the right passes, and then playing terrific defense on Rose down the stretch. Honestly, Rose has gotten maybe couple of easy baskets in each of the last 3 games and that's it. Miami's defense in playoffs is one of the best I've seen in recent times.

In the last 3 games, Bulls/Rose haven't figured out what to do. Does he need to be more aggressive? Does he need to pass the ball? They have tried both, and neither strategy resulted in a win, or found much success in the 4th quarter. Miami's D is the single biggest reason for the playoff success so far, and it starts with D-Wade and Lebron James.

This is the best I've seen Lebron play defense. He has been a pretty decent defender last few years, but he has been special this year...and that has def. hurt his efficiency on the other side a little bit - but I'll take that when your defense can restrict the other team around 90 pts consistently.

I disagree that he's been coming through down the stretch on both ends when it matters. Miami got exactly 2 points in the last 2 minutes of regulation, on a look that Bosh created on his own. This included an offensive foul with 8 seconds left, when LeBron had no business doing that with that much time left on the clock and it jeopardized the game. Neither he nor Miami has been very good in crunch time in this series on the offensive end, but the Bulls have been much worse. He's been great on the other side on the defensive end, as the entire team has been in 4th quarters and in the clutch. When the other team isn't scoring at all, eventually you're going to make some plays on the offensive end that win the game.

Miami's D IS the biggest single reason for their playoff success. I agree. The Bulls are averaging 15.7 points per 4th quarter in the last 3 games. LeBron has been phenomenal defensively, but so has Wade, Anthony, & Chalmers. Rose being God awful is the difference in this series, and (as you said) he's being mostly guarded by Bibby/Chalmers and whichever big is defending the pick and roll.

I think the biggest reason why Rose is having such a horrible series is the offense they are running. The Bulls have been so focused on running their plays on most possessions that good shots are being passed up so they can run the play. Also, the insistance on running pick and roll with Noah has been unsuccessful. Yes Bibby/Chalmers have been guarding Rose, but everytime they run the pick, one of the Heat bigs are always there to double up on Rose, and Noah isn't taking that jumper anymore. They should definitely run more iso, not exclusively, but more.

This whole series so far has been a battle of defenses, and so far, the Heat have been better. Omer Asik is apparently out for the rest of the postseason, which could be a good thing for the Bulls because now Kurt Thomas can get some run. With Thomas, the Bulls can run the pick and pop game, since he can actually hit a jump shot.

Not to mention Kurt is one of the best interior defenders of his era. I always thought the Bulls' best lineup would be Rose/Deng/Gibson/Boozer/Noah, or sub out Boozer for Thomas if you need some D. They were gonna play Deng at the 2 if they got LBJ, it's not like it's something he couldn't do.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

Noah missed a good chunk more time than Bynum, and Noah is AT LEAST as valuable to Chicago as Bynum is to LAL. Boozer and Barnes also missed about a quarter of the season as well, and I think we can both agree that Boozer means WAAAAAY more to Chicago than Barnes does to LAL. Other than that, the ever crucial Steve Blake missed a WHOPPING 2 games (which they won both anyway) and no one else missed ANY. So how was Chicago healthier than LAL?

The Thunder have been awfully healthy the last 2 years also. But I would love someone to find me another team that had 7 of their top 9 miss a combined 2 games
[ Edited by andes14 on May 26, 2011 at 11:59 AM ]
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.

Hmm, perhaps its because when Rose is resting, its usually the opponents bench that is out on the floor. And as been the case all year, the Bulls bench was better than the opponents. Also, the bench D was better than the starting D, which quite often led to more baskets in transition. As Rose goes, so do the Bulls. Also, just because players didn't miss that many games, that doesn't mean they didn't play hurt. I know every team goes through that, I'm just saying.
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.

Hmm, perhaps its because when Rose is resting, its usually the opponents bench that is out on the floor. And as been the case all year, the Bulls bench was better than the opponents. Also, the bench D was better than the starting D, which quite often led to more baskets in transition. As Rose goes, so do the Bulls. Also, just because players didn't miss that many games, that doesn't mean they didn't play hurt. I know every team goes through that, I'm just saying.

Exactly! The Bulls have a better TEAM than almost the entire league. That doesnt mean Rose should be the MVP. The Bulls are a GREAT team. You put any number of PGs on the Bulls, and they dont miss a beat.

Like I said, Rose is a great talent. But he should not have been the MVP.

Lets hope he doesnt lose the game for his team again tonight.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.

Hmm, perhaps its because when Rose is resting, its usually the opponents bench that is out on the floor. And as been the case all year, the Bulls bench was better than the opponents. Also, the bench D was better than the starting D, which quite often led to more baskets in transition. As Rose goes, so do the Bulls. Also, just because players didn't miss that many games, that doesn't mean they didn't play hurt. I know every team goes through that, I'm just saying.

Exactly! The Bulls have a better TEAM than almost the entire league. That doesnt mean Rose should be the MVP. The Bulls are a GREAT team. You put any number of PGs on the Bulls, and they dont miss a beat.

Like I said, Rose is a great talent. But he should not have been the MVP.

Lets hope he doesnt lose the game for his team again tonight.

They're a great DEFENSIVE team. But the reason Rose won MVP (though I could certainly understand the argument for LBJ and Dwight) is because a team that only has one guy that can create his own bucket/worry defenses has no business winning 62 games.
Member Milestone: This is post number 600 for samoan49er.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.

Hmm, perhaps its because when Rose is resting, its usually the opponents bench that is out on the floor. And as been the case all year, the Bulls bench was better than the opponents. Also, the bench D was better than the starting D, which quite often led to more baskets in transition. As Rose goes, so do the Bulls. Also, just because players didn't miss that many games, that doesn't mean they didn't play hurt. I know every team goes through that, I'm just saying.

Exactly! The Bulls have a better TEAM than almost the entire league. That doesnt mean Rose should be the MVP. The Bulls are a GREAT team. You put any number of PGs on the Bulls, and they dont miss a beat. Like I said, Rose is a great talent. But he should not have been the MVP.

Lets hope he doesnt lose the game for his team again tonight.

They're a great DEFENSIVE team. But the reason Rose won MVP (though I could certainly understand the argument for LBJ and Dwight) is because a team that only has one guy that can create his own bucket/worry defenses has no business winning 62 games.

Wow I give up already, I have no comeback for the put any number of point guards on this team and we dont miss a beat. Please, give me a break with that one. I guess there's no convincing one another otherwise, might as well just give it a rest. Agree to disagree. I feel like I'm debating a John Hollinger article or something. Go Bulls!!