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Week 15: Thoughts after rewatching the game....

Originally posted by BrianGO:
They didn't call him for "helmet-to-helmet", they called him for the new rule, "hitting a defenseless receiver".

Basically, the rule is, "You can't hit a receiver hard, immediately after he catches the ball." You can hit him softly and then tackle him, but you can't hit him hard. Believe it or not, that is essentially the rule; or at least, that is how they call it in a game.

That is what I have been saying about Goldson, his hard hitting ability is overrated because, well, you aren't allowed to hit hard immediately after a catch. Goldson should know this rule by now. If he doesn't, then be prepared to see a lot more penalties like this in the future.


Seems like he gets at least one of these every week. And truthfully, I can more than live with it. Not only because I don't want him to sacrifice his style, but because those hits by he and Whitner in the 2nd quarter clearly shook up those Pats receivers. It wasn't until Fangio went to the Cover 3 and 4 that the Pats began to comeback.

On another note...while I was super pissed at Kaep not getting the snap exchange corrected...that is something that is fixable in practice and on the side with he and Goody...

But I think Roman's playcalling has officially blown a gasket for me. I was flabbergasted at the run call on 3rd down with 8 seconds left in the first half. Previously confused at the run call that led to the Akers miss. The call for the swing pass out of the backfield that James pulled up on doesn't work if you don't have an inside receiver clearing the space and making the defense rethink coverage on the back. It was endless facepalming at times wondering WTF Roman was thinking up there.

As everyone always says...he's the coach so I should trust him...
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Goldson's personal foul on Hernandez was a close call. It looked like Helmet to chin strap. I would have let it slide but I'm obviously biased.

It wasn't called helmet to helmet contact. The call was for hitting a defenseless receiver.

I liked the hit by Goldson. He's good for one of these a game where he just punishes someone for going over the middle. Without the hit Hernandez hangs on to that ball and likely the Pats gain more yards than they got from the penalty anyway.


That's a good point, because he would have made the catch anyway. The problem is, what if he MAKES the catch even though you hit him hard? Then you have to deal with a 15 yard penalty in addition to the big completion.

It's a hilariously bad rule. If the defender slows up before the hit, the receiver could run right by him. If the defender tried to wrap as he makes the hit, his helmet will almost certainly hit the other players helmet. If the defender doesn't slow up and leads with a shoulder, the hit is too hard and you get the penalty. There is almost nothing a defender can do in that situation. He either has to take a penalty or slow down and let the receiver make the catch.

Hey come on now... that is a direct attack on Goodell. The guy who claims this league is about safety but allows players to play without knee pads, thigh pads or hip pads...
Speaking of penalties...

That PI call on Tarell Brown that gave the Pats the ball at the 3 or 4 was easily THE WORST PI call I have seen in years. Easily.

Meanwhile...Crabtree was "legally pushed out of bounds" on a pass play...and the "legal push" was 13 yards downfield...which, by rule, should have drawn a flag for illegal contact.

Ed Hochuli seems to always be at the center of the worst officiated games every season. EVERY SEASON.
[ Edited by reasonable1 on Dec 17, 2012 at 3:04 AM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Goldson's personal foul on Hernandez was a close call. It looked like Helmet to chin strap. I would have let it slide but I'm obviously biased.

It wasn't called helmet to helmet contact. The call was for hitting a defenseless receiver.

I liked the hit by Goldson. He's good for one of these a game where he just punishes someone for going over the middle. Without the hit Hernandez hangs on to that ball and likely the Pats gain more yards than they got from the penalty anyway.


That's a good point, because he would have made the catch anyway. The problem is, what if he MAKES the catch even though you hit him hard? Then you have to deal with a 15 yard penalty in addition to the big completion.

It's a hilariously bad rule. If the defender slows up before the hit, the receiver could run right by him. If the defender tried to wrap as he makes the hit, his helmet will almost certainly hit the other players helmet. If the defender doesn't slow up and leads with a shoulder, the hit is too hard and you get the penalty. There is almost nothing a defender can do in that situation. He either has to take a penalty or slow down and let the receiver make the catch.

That's what makes the call so awful. Hernandez WAS NOT a defenseless receiver. He had the ball in his grasp and he would have caught it if Goldson doesn't put a woo-lick on him. How can you tell defenders not to hit hard to dislodge the ball? It's ridiculous. If it was a helmet to helmet call, then fine, I understand. But in no way was Hernandez a defenseless receiver. You have the ball, you get hit. Is this not football?
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Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
i didn't think Goldson's hit on Hernandez was a personal foul, just good hard nosed football.
Kaep has shown yet again that Harbaugh made the right choice.
I was wondering why the clock didn't run at 5:01 left in the 4th quarter after the Pats ran a 3rd down play that stayed in bounds, then they punted.
Ginn is too indecisive on punts and causes his own trouble, but the weather was bad.
James is a great asset on kickoffs.
I am worried about Justin Smiths elbow---the Niner's post season success I think depends on his health.

Agreed, Goldson's hit on Hernandez was not helmet to helmet. Can't believe they called that. I think the refs at that point were feeling sorry for the home team so they just threw the Patriots a bone.

They didn't call him for "helmet-to-helmet", they called him for the new rule, "hitting a defenseless receiver".

Basically, the rule is, "You can't hit a receiver hard, immediately after he catches the ball." You can hit him softly and then tackle him, but you can't hit him hard. Believe it or not, that is essentially the rule; or at least, that is how they call it in a game.

That is what I have been saying about Goldson, his hard hitting ability is overrated because, well, you aren't allowed to hit hard immediately after a catch. Goldson should know this rule by now. If he doesn't, then be prepared to see a lot more penalties like this in the future.


If Ronnie Lott played today his whole salary would go to the NFL offices for fines on hard hits. I thought Goldson's hit was text-book, the only problem is that "the book" has changed and many things have been banned. If you clock someone in the open field you can be assured of a fine.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
i didn't think Goldson's hit on Hernandez was a personal foul, just good hard nosed football.
Kaep has shown yet again that Harbaugh made the right choice.
I was wondering why the clock didn't run at 5:01 left in the 4th quarter after the Pats ran a 3rd down play that stayed in bounds, then they punted.
Ginn is too indecisive on punts and causes his own trouble, but the weather was bad.
James is a great asset on kickoffs.
I am worried about Justin Smiths elbow---the Niner's post season success I think depends on his health.

Agreed, Goldson's hit on Hernandez was not helmet to helmet. Can't believe they called that. I think the refs at that point were feeling sorry for the home team so they just threw the Patriots a bone.

They didn't call him for "helmet-to-helmet", they called him for the new rule, "hitting a defenseless receiver".

Basically, the rule is, "You can't hit a receiver hard, immediately after he catches the ball." You can hit him softly and then tackle him, but you can't hit him hard. Believe it or not, that is essentially the rule; or at least, that is how they call it in a game.

That is what I have been saying about Goldson, his hard hitting ability is overrated because, well, you aren't allowed to hit hard immediately after a catch. Goldson should know this rule by now. If he doesn't, then be prepared to see a lot more penalties like this in the future.

I disagree here because the next play, Hernandez peeked just before trying to catch that screen pass and Aldon intercepted it. Sometimes, a hard hit puts an impression on a team/player no different than Whitner's hit on the Saints RB.

It sends a message.
Originally posted by SealTeam6:
Our coaches got lucky

Agreed! Coach Vic should have learned a lesson from this one. I don't care if we were up 65 to 3 at the half, don't let off the gas until the game is over. There is no mercy in football unless the other team just quits. The game was far from over with that big lead. The defense went straight to sleep and Brady storms back with 4 easy touchdowns in a ROW. Got lucky this time indeed.
[ Edited by LanceQ on Dec 17, 2012 at 3:23 AM ]
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My impressions:

1.) Ginn drives me crazy. He is definitely gone after this year. His only asset as a returner is that he is sure handed and usually gets about 10-15 yards on most punts. Now his hands are an issue and we don't reap the rewards of him running a few back. I would rather see Kyle Williams, LaMichael James, or a rookie specialist (Denard Robinson, maybe?) David Akers too. He was nice last year, but he has lost it. We probably have to ride the playoffs out with him. It is too risky to bring in a new guy this late.

2.) All of the people calling for Fangio and Roman's heads are being ridiculous. Yes, Fangio changed the defensive scheme to more of a zone for much of the third quarter. I understood his thinking. Keep the explosive offense in front of you and make them earn what they get. The last thing he wanted was to have Brady drop a few big plays over a blitzing defense. The reason the Patriots were able to come back so quickly was because the Patriots offense made an adjustment and took advantage of a tired, banged up unit. Blitzing the crap out of them instead of playing zone might have worked, or it might have been ineffective for a defense that was exhausted. They showed up when they needed to and that is what matters. I also thought Roman called a great game. Unfortunate turnovers, bad snaps, and a few overthrown balls were the biggest killers. Don't you realize how lucky we are to have an offensive coordinator that mixes it up? Don't you remember Jimmy Raye or Hostler? When the offense is clicking we praise Roman for being an innovator. When it stumbles we say he is getting too cute or too vanilla. With the lead last night, Roman went to a power running game to drive the nail into the coffin and wear down their defense. It was also to take pressure off a young QB who was having trouble holding the ball. His calls made sense. Credit the Pats' defense for answering the call. Fangio and Roman brought these units back from the dead. Not every drive, quarter, or even game is going to be perfect, but I definitely trust the plan. Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy for us to say where things went wrong after the fact. Try looking at the intention of the calls and realize that we still got much more right than we did wrong.

3.) The offensive line has regressed. Their pass protection has gotten worse and they aren't getting to the second level in the run game. Wilfork and the Pats linebackers are just as responsible for the comeback last night. They dominated the line of scrimmage in the third quarter and it was because the line was missing blocks, getting holding penalties, and losing ground.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
That's what makes the call so awful. Hernandez WAS NOT a defenseless receiver. He had the ball in his grasp and he would have caught it if Goldson doesn't put a woo-lick on him. How can you tell defenders not to hit hard to dislodge the ball? It's ridiculous. If it was a helmet to helmet call, then fine, I understand. But in no way was Hernandez a defenseless receiver. You have the ball, you get hit. Is this not football?


They should change the rule to something like, "excessive contact" and just make it a judgement call. "Defenseless" receiver just makes it sound more technical and politically correct.

They should make it a directional rule instead, for example, "No full speed hits at an opposing angle to the direction the receiver is running IF he is running full speed". In other words, prevent the MASSIVE collisions, but let the other stuff go where the player is coming from the side angle.
Originally posted by LanceQ:
Originally posted by SealTeam6:
Our coaches got lucky

Agreed! Coach Vic should have learned a lesson from this one. I don't care if we were up 65 to 3 at the half, don't let off the gas until the game is over. There is no mercy in football unless the other team just quits. The game was far from over with that big lead. The defense went straight to sleep and Brady storms back with 4 easy touchdowns in a ROW. Got lucky this time indeed.

This.

I think when we went into that prevent, it seemed like the players took a break. Dangerous game, if you ask me. I would have thought after that second one, I would have wanted after that first one, for someone to make a big hit or play or something. And then each time we got the ball back, we decided to run either straight up the gut with Gore or off tackle with James. It was predictable and ineffective.
[ Edited by mkmasn on Dec 17, 2012 at 3:31 AM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
i didn't think Goldson's hit on Hernandez was a personal foul, just good hard nosed football.
Kaep has shown yet again that Harbaugh made the right choice.
I was wondering why the clock didn't run at 5:01 left in the 4th quarter after the Pats ran a 3rd down play that stayed in bounds, then they punted.
Ginn is too indecisive on punts and causes his own trouble, but the weather was bad.
James is a great asset on kickoffs.
I am worried about Justin Smiths elbow---the Niner's post season success I think depends on his health.

Agreed, Goldson's hit on Hernandez was not helmet to helmet. Can't believe they called that. I think the refs at that point were feeling sorry for the home team so they just threw the Patriots a bone.

They didn't call him for "helmet-to-helmet", they called him for the new rule, "hitting a defenseless receiver".

Basically, the rule is, "You can't hit a receiver hard, immediately after he catches the ball." You can hit him softly and then tackle him, but you can't hit him hard. Believe it or not, that is essentially the rule; or at least, that is how they call it in a game.

That is what I have been saying about Goldson, his hard hitting ability is overrated because, well, you aren't allowed to hit hard immediately after a catch. Goldson should know this rule by now. If he doesn't, then be prepared to see a lot more penalties like this in the future.

I disagree here because the next play, Hernandez peeked just before trying to catch that screen pass and Aldon intercepted it. Sometimes, a hard hit puts an impression on a team/player no different than Whitner's hit on the Saints RB.

It sends a message.


That's true, and there is value in hard hits, but hard hitters have certainly lost a lot of their value when compared to the days of Ronnie Lott etc. It's still valuable, its just LESS valuable, because those penalties can hurt you a lot as well.
There is no longer any question that Kaep is the legitimate starter and best option at QB for the 49ers. I'm hoping we can hang on to Alex as our backup, but I'm sure he'll want an opportunity to start somewhere else.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by LanceQ:
Originally posted by SealTeam6:
Our coaches got lucky

Agreed! Coach Vic should have learned a lesson from this one. I don't care if we were up 65 to 3 at the half, don't let off the gas until the game is over. There is no mercy in football unless the other team just quits. The game was far from over with that big lead. The defense went straight to sleep and Brady storms back with 4 easy touchdowns in a ROW. Got lucky this time indeed.

This.

I think when we went into that prevent, it seemed like the players took a break. Dangerous game, if you ask me. I would have thought after that second one, I would have wanted after that first one, for someone to make a big hit or play or something. And then each time we got the ball back, we decided to run either straight up the gut with Gore or off tackle with James. It was predictable and ineffective.


When we were doing that, I was beside myself. I thought, "Has Fangio ever PLAYED this team before?" "Does he realize that they are going to march down the field against a soft zone and score TD's?"

You can't go into the soft zone and just let them complete easy pass after pass after pass. Brady will KILL you all day long with those completions. ESPECIALLY with the hurry up offense the Patriots run, very little time is running off the clock, because they are lining right back up with no huddle and just completing pass after pass.
It's completely ineffective against the Patriots. Brady could have sleep-walked his way to that comeback because we made it so easy for him.

And then Roman complemented it perfectly with the runs up the middle trying to clock the game with the same thought process.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Dec 17, 2012 at 3:39 AM ]
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Originally posted by BrianGO:
They didn't call him for "helmet-to-helmet", they called him for the new rule, "hitting a defenseless receiver".

Basically, the rule is, "You can't hit a receiver hard, immediately after he catches the ball." You can hit him softly and then tackle him, but you can't hit him hard. Believe it or not, that is essentially the rule; or at least, that is how they call it in a game.

That is what I have been saying about Goldson, his hard hitting ability is overrated because, well, you aren't allowed to hit hard immediately after a catch. Goldson should know this rule by now. If he doesn't, then be prepared to see a lot more penalties like this in the future.

That's not the rule. Goldson was rightfully called for the penalty. The rule is simple: as a defender - you can't hit a defenseless receiver on head or neck area. Period. Not with your helmet, not with your shoulder, not with your hands. You also can not use your helmet to hit any part of this defenseless receiver. What you must do is, use your shoulder to hit him below his neck if you want to hit him hard - which is exactly what Goldson did to Early Doucet against Arizona.

A defenseless receiver is:

A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player


That's the rule - whether that's a good rule or not - that's debatable. But, Goldson was called for hitting a defenseless hitter in the neck/head area...which he did.
Originally posted by Niners99:
49ers against the AFC East this year:

4-0, 147 pts scored. 50 pts allowed. Thats an average win of 37-13.

oh, and also...49ers in the Super Bowl:

5-0,188 pts. scored. 89 pts. allowed. Average win of 38-18

Not really related, its just awesome.