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Aldon Smith vs Oher

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Actually, you've got it backwards.

You're just now saying what many of the rest of this board have been saying all along: Aldon Smith's got great potential (and was well worth the 7th pick).

Nobody on this board has been throwing a "mountain of accolades" at Aldon Smith. That's a gross overstatement, hyperbole compounded.

It's just another of the many straw men you so often set up so you can knock it down, and thereby belittle the "many [anonymous, non-existent] board members" you're pretending might have actually said this.

Thus you go to great extremes, and insult virtually the entire board, to try to make yourself look better, and in this case to try to backpeddle from your initial criticism of the Aldon Smith pick.

Its sad, really.

Now stop bothering me.

Beating dead horse once again: If you read my draft review, you will notice that I stated that Smith has a ton of potential, but that I felt he was not worth the risk at number seven, even though I had him as the top OLB on my board when the team picked. I saw him as a player down the board a bit, and that other players were better options for the team. Hence, the C grade, not an F grade. Nobody is saying the pick is a disaster. I leave that to my analysis of Taylor Mays and Chilo Rachal.

Many on the board simply cannot accept the fact that when he has an off day, that he is having an off day. Excuses are thrown his way..."if the QB held the ball three more seconds, "if he had more playing time", "if this" and "if that". Right now, the past few games, he is not producing in the main role assigned to him, get to the QB. It doesn't mean his career is doomed, it just means he is up and down. Meanwhile, guys like Von Miller, who are consistently chewing up offenses, would not be traded if Smith was offered? That is the sentiment by a lot of people on this thread, which to me, is crazy talk.

As for your previous statements on JJ Watt, you are not being intellectually honest when reading my writing. Nobody has stated that Watt is single-handedly changing the Texans' defense. However, he in undeniably a giant piece in the transformation, and he is emerging as one of the better 3-4 DE's in the game as a rookie, not a guy who is coming off the bench in nickle situations. The impact of a Watt, Kerrigan, Miller, is much greater than Smith. You would surely not deny that, would you?
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Dec 1, 2011 at 12:49 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I am not a newbie, and I have been on this forum for about six years, but my old name Stillincollege had been deleted due to inactivity with posting. No need to disqualify my statements through an inaccurate assumption :P.

It's obvious that Fangio could manufacture sacks through scheme, but I don't think that is how we need to play our defense in order to get a pass-rush at this point.

The topic was pass-rush, it wasn't overall effectiveness in our defense. I didn't mention all the forced fumbles or stoutness in run-defense that Ahmad brooks showed in coming off the bench in years past. The reason why we drafted Aldon Smith was because we wanted the anti-Manny Lawson, someone who could pass-rush. I made a direct comparison between Aldon and Ahmad because many in Ninertalk gushed over his pass-rushing ability as if he'd be the second coming of Reggie White, opining that he just needed more time on the field (whom does that remind you of?).

In the four games we had against good teams, the Lions, the Giants, the Cowboys, and Ravens, only in the Lions game could I single out Aldon as a main reason why we won. On the whole, our pass-rush failed in the other three games, where Eli beat himself, Flacco enjoyed Thanksgiving without any form of harassment, and Romo had time to carve us up. 49ers teams in the past have enjoyed sack-number inflation through playing woeful teams such as the Rams and others, but as fans we've all lamented the fact that in big games the pass-rush doesn't usually show up.

Aldon is a good player, we already agreed on the notion of giving over-excessive praise, and this is the only point that matters. In no way did I disparage our defense's performance, and my comment about Brooks had more to do with his past role as a situational pass-rusher (similar to Aldon) and how pass-rushing becomes more much difficult once you are actually a starter and start seeing double-teams here and there. Indeed, Aldon has been contributing to our overall defense, otherwise he'd be riding the bench right now. Does that make him a great role player? Absolutely. Does that make him a great player? No, because most great players play 3 downs, make sacks in the 4th quarter like a DeMarcus Ware or tips like a Justin Smith when the gas-tank is on empty; he hasn't proven any of these things yet. Aldon Smith is a block in the 49ers' victory arch right now, but not the keystone of this defense! When he warrants such status as a pass-rusher, even as a situational pass-rusher, he deserves all the praise he can get.

We are all 49ers fans here, so we hope, as homers, that Aldon will be the next best thing since sliced bread

Now THIS is more like it...great post and I apologize if I misunderstood you. Great post and points and I, obviously agree. Too much praise for Aldon but he is producing, has lots of upside, seems motivated and needs to learn how to slowly become an every-down OLB who can bring the heat! B/c you are right...starting and esp. taking every snap, double-teamed, is a totally different game so if you better develop your overall game. We haven't been winning with anything exotic esp. on defense. Its been straight up. We are the #1 defense. I certainly have my criticisms but we can all say that. Anyhow, thanks for the reply and for not taking it personally. Go Niners!
Excellent posts, both you guys.

Nice to see two guys in a reasonable discussion, each making an effort to see the other's point of view.

Its possible, is it not, to give some credit to Aldon Smith for his performance this year so far--he has won DROW, twice, hasn't he--and still recognize that he's a rookie, needs more experience, and has yet to reach his full potential.

And although he has yet to be named a starter, and may not have consistently faced all the double teams that a guy like Justin Smith sees routinely, for example, he's also still learning, and will play faster once he's got the experience and confidence that comes with more playing time. IMHO.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
He's pretty good. This is probably the best comparison with Smith in measurables entering into the league, and if Smith can play at his level, the team will be in good shape down the road.

A big question is whether Smith can effectively play the 3-4 OLB position. I graded him as the second best 3-4 OLB in this draft (after Miller), but the transition has been rough in coverage, and this is limiting his playing time to almost strictly rushing the passer in a three point stance. JPP is a 4-3 DE, and this may end up being the best position for Smith in the NFL.

Baalke said long before the season started and so did Fangio-they drafted him to rush the passer. He is not going to be dropping back all that much even in the future. He only needs to learn to contain the run, when he does that he will be in the game more and his stats will just increase.

Aldon is what we needed. Watts, I liked him but niners needed to add to the defense, not reconstruct the defense. He will be what Haley was for us a while back. In fact smith has made some game changing saving plays.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Actually, you've got it backwards.

You're just now saying what many of the rest of this board have been saying all along: Aldon Smith's got great potential (and was well worth the 7th pick).

Nobody on this board has been throwing a "mountain of accolades" at Aldon Smith. That's a gross overstatement, hyperbole compounded.

It's just another of the many straw men you so often set up so you can knock it down, and thereby belittle the "many [anonymous, non-existent] board members" you're pretending might have actually said this.

Thus you go to great extremes, and insult virtually the entire board, to try to make yourself look better, and in this case to try to backpeddle from your initial criticism of the Aldon Smith pick.

Its sad, really.

Now stop bothering me.

Beating dead horse once again: If you read my draft review, you will notice that I stated that Smith has a ton of potential, but that I felt he was not worth the risk at number seven, even though I had him as the top OLB on my board when the team picked. I saw him as a player down the board a bit, and that other players were better options for the team. Hence, the C grade, not an F grade. Nobody is saying the pick is a disaster. I leave that to my analysis of Taylor Mays and Chilo Rachal.

Many on the board simply cannot accept the fact that when he has an off day, that he is having an off day. Excuses are thrown his way..."if the QB held the ball three more seconds, "if he had more playing time", "if this" and "if that". Right now, the past few games, he is not producing in the main role assigned to him, get to the QB. It doesn't mean his career is doomed, it just means he is up and down. Meanwhile, guys like Von Miller, who are consistently chewing up offenses, would not be traded if Smith was offered? That is the sentiment by a lot of people on this thread, which to me, is crazy talk.

As for your previous statements on JJ Watt, you are not being intellectually honest when reading my writing. Nobody has stated that Watt is single-handedly changing the Texans' defense. However, he in undeniably a giant piece in the transformation, and he is emerging as one of the better 3-4 DE's in the game as a rookie, not a guy who is coming off the bench in nickle situations. The impact of a Watt, Kerrigan, Miller, is much greater than Smith. You would surely not deny that, would you?
Sigh. Ok, lets try this one more time.

You say: "Many on the board simply cannot accept the fact that when he has an off day, that he is having an off day."

Name one!

This is just a straw man that you set up so you can easily knock it down. "Many on the board?????"

Who????

Many on this board know quite alot about NFL football.

There are many, many very knowledgeable posters on this board. You might try actually reading THEIR posts, instead of pretending that "many" of them made some absurd statement that you can then ridicule.

And you're having trouble even doing that very well. For example, you write: ". . . guys like Von Miller . . . would not be traded if [Aldon] Smith were offered. . . . That is the sentiment by alot of people on this thread, which to me is crazy talk."

It's crazy to believe that Denver wouldn't trade Von Miller for Aldon Smith???? WTF???

Your straw man in this example turns out to have a brain, and steel underneath. Not so easy for you to knock this one down.

If Denver had wanted Aldon Smith, they could easily have drafted him, instead of taking Von Miller. So how would it be "crazy talk" to state that they would not likely trade Miller for Smith now?

As for your oft repeated accusation, directed at me this time, of "intellectual dishonesty," I suggest you go back and read your own posts, and let them decide who's being dishonest about what was stated. (Hint: it isn't me.)

Edit: from your post (#65 of this thread): "In addition, the addition of JJ Watt has propelled the Texans to become the #1 defense in the NFL." Sure sounds like you're saying Watt has singlehandedly "propelled" the Houston defense to a #1 status.

Now stop bothering me.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Dec 1, 2011 at 1:53 PM ]
It would have been nice to be able to add Peterson, Watt, Von Miller, and A. Smith to our defense but we couldn't. So we added A. Smith to OLB, resigned McDonald to 3-4 DE, and acquired Carlos Rogers to CB. The reality is we did well and we have a strong Defense. This next draft will give us the opportunity to shore up some weak spots and get some quality depth. Plus we will have a full free agency season and we will be seen as a winning team. So we have lots of draws this year and time will tell how all of these things are handled. So the skys the limit and it will be interesting to see how A. Smith plays out the rest of this year and how he develops during the off season. Until then I am happy that we got Aldon Smith to work with.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
It would have been nice to be able to add Peterson, Watt, Von Miller, and A. Smith to our defense but we couldn't. So we added A. Smith to OLB, resigned McDonald to 3-4 DE, and acquired Carlos Rogers to CB. The reality is we did well and we have a strong Defense. This next draft will give us the opportunity to shore up some weak spots and get some quality depth. Plus we will have a full free agency season and we will be seen as a winning team. So we have lots of draws this year and time will tell how all of these things are handled. So the skys the limit and it will be interesting to see how A. Smith plays out the rest of this year and how he develops during the off season. Until then I am happy that we got Aldon Smith to work with.
Plus we added Culliver in the third round of the draft, a guy who's size, strength and speed are very comparable to Peterson's.

To me, Von Miller is the guy that would be difficult to pass on, if given the chance. But we didn't get that chance, so . . . oh well.

The guy on the Niners who most closely resembles Miller might be Navarro Bowman. They're similar in size and speed--and both played OLB in college. That may mean that IF Miller had come to the Niners, he'd be playing ILB--behind Willis and Bowman!
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Plus we added Culliver in the third round of the draft, a guy who's size, strength and speed are very comparable to Peterson's.

To me, Von Miller is the guy that would be difficult to pass on, if given the chance. But we didn't get that chance, so . . . oh well.

The guy on the Niners who most closely resembles Miller might be Navarro Bowman. They're similar in size and speed--and both played OLB in college. That may mean that IF Miller had come to the Niners, he'd be playing ILB--behind Willis and Bowman!

No he wouldn't have. Miller is a great pass rusher and right now he's playing at a very high level and looks better than Aldon. However down the road Aldon may turn out to be the better player. I could see a similar trend to Merriman/Ware for Miller/Smith

Merriman was the more feared pass rusher early in their career, obviously we know who's been the better player long term. But that's purely speculation right now and I do think given their current play you'd be silly not to trade Aldon for Miller. Of course the good/bad news is nobody will be doing that so we'll see how Aldon progresses.

Personally I think the sky is the limit for the kid and I think he'll be busting his butt to get better and better. But I fully expect both guys to be top pass rushers in this league for years. Miller's first step and speed is sick but Aldon has the size to hold up more and be a threat against different types of linemen.
Smith wears red & gold so hes better than miller
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
Smith wears red & gold so hes better than miller


I can get on board with this!
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Brian you are cracking me up dude...

Guys really Aldo is 20 freaking years old!!! Miller, Kerrigan, Watt, Reed...all those guys are 2 and 3 years older.

MD for the work that Aldo has contributed so far this season given how raw and untested he is, compared to the others I say he is over-acheiving given the amount of snaps he has made....but I agree he is not used because Harrelson is better at the run game, and also he is still extremly raw at pass coverage.

2 years from now when he is 22, he will be a premiere OLB in the NFL. I love the pick and the potential, this whole draft every single player was drafted to be developed for the future. Be thankful for everyone's contributions this soon, and a good part of the reason why we will wrap up the NFC West this weekend.
Smith was born in September 1989, Watt in March 1989. Watt is six months older. Kerrigan is 13 months older than Smith.

He might be the premier OLB in the NFL in two years, but he will be 24, not 22. He's 22 right now.

woops!
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Eskendale:
I am not a newbie, and I have been on this forum for about six years, but my old name Stillincollege had been deleted due to inactivity with posting. No need to disqualify my statements through an inaccurate assumption :P.

It's obvious that Fangio could manufacture sacks through scheme, but I don't think that is how we need to play our defense in order to get a pass-rush at this point.

The topic was pass-rush, it wasn't overall effectiveness in our defense. I didn't mention all the forced fumbles or stoutness in run-defense that Ahmad brooks showed in coming off the bench in years past. The reason why we drafted Aldon Smith was because we wanted the anti-Manny Lawson, someone who could pass-rush. I made a direct comparison between Aldon and Ahmad because many in Ninertalk gushed over his pass-rushing ability as if he'd be the second coming of Reggie White, opining that he just needed more time on the field (whom does that remind you of?).

In the four games we had against good teams, the Lions, the Giants, the Cowboys, and Ravens, only in the Lions game could I single out Aldon as a main reason why we won. On the whole, our pass-rush failed in the other three games, where Eli beat himself, Flacco enjoyed Thanksgiving without any form of harassment, and Romo had time to carve us up. 49ers teams in the past have enjoyed sack-number inflation through playing woeful teams such as the Rams and others, but as fans we've all lamented the fact that in big games the pass-rush doesn't usually show up.

Aldon is a good player, we already agreed on the notion of giving over-excessive praise, and this is the only point that matters. In no way did I disparage our defense's performance, and my comment about Brooks had more to do with his past role as a situational pass-rusher (similar to Aldon) and how pass-rushing becomes more much difficult once you are actually a starter and start seeing double-teams here and there. Indeed, Aldon has been contributing to our overall defense, otherwise he'd be riding the bench right now. Does that make him a great role player? Absolutely. Does that make him a great player? No, because most great players play 3 downs, make sacks in the 4th quarter like a DeMarcus Ware or tips like a Justin Smith when the gas-tank is on empty; he hasn't proven any of these things yet. Aldon Smith is a block in the 49ers' victory arch right now, but not the keystone of this defense! When he warrants such status as a pass-rusher, even as a situational pass-rusher, he deserves all the praise he can get.

We are all 49ers fans here, so we hope, as homers, that Aldon will be the next best thing since sliced bread

Now THIS is more like it...great post and I apologize if I misunderstood you. Great post and points and I, obviously agree. Too much praise for Aldon but he is producing, has lots of upside, seems motivated and needs to learn how to slowly become an every-down OLB who can bring the heat! B/c you are right...starting and esp. taking every snap, double-teamed, is a totally different game so if you better develop your overall game. We haven't been winning with anything exotic esp. on defense. Its been straight up. We are the #1 defense. I certainly have my criticisms but we can all say that. Anyhow, thanks for the reply and for not taking it personally. Go Niners!
Excellent posts, both you guys.

Nice to see two guys in a reasonable discussion, each making an effort to see the other's point of view.

Its possible, is it not, to give some credit to Aldon Smith for his performance this year so far--he has won DROW, twice, hasn't he--and still recognize that he's a rookie, needs more experience, and has yet to reach his full potential.

And although he has yet to be named a starter, and may not have consistently faced all the double teams that a guy like Justin Smith sees routinely, for example, he's also still learning, and will play faster once he's got the experience and confidence that comes with more playing time. IMHO.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading NCommand's posts over the years, especially about the 3-4 defense and specifics concerning setting the edge, etc., one of the more prominent topics of which dealt with Manny Lawson's effectiveness as an OLB when everyone claimed he was useless. So often we quote from the Bible when we want wisdom, and I've used your logic in other posts when talking about the same subject


I think we'll be fine this year, and I honestly believe once the game had totally slowed down for Aldon, his play will improve; really looking forward to next year to see if he takes off or not. The fact that our defense is good enough to relegate him to only passing-downs is a testament not only to the strength of our defense but also the patience of our coaching staff with playing the rookie and working on his development.
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
woops!

Not a problem. Both Smith and Watt are pups.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Dec 1, 2011 at 7:01 PM ]
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Sigh. Ok, lets try this one more time.

You say: "Many on the board simply cannot accept the fact that when he has an off day, that he is having an off day."

Name one!

This is just a straw man that you set up so you can easily knock it down. "Many on the board?????"

Who????

Many on this board know quite alot about NFL football.

There are many, many very knowledgeable posters on this board. You might try actually reading THEIR posts, instead of pretending that "many" of them made some absurd statement that you can then ridicule.

And you're having trouble even doing that very well. For example, you write: ". . . guys like Von Miller . . . would not be traded if [Aldon] Smith were offered. . . . That is the sentiment by alot of people on this thread, which to me is crazy talk."

It's crazy to believe that Denver wouldn't trade Von Miller for Aldon Smith???? WTF???

Your straw man in this example turns out to have a brain, and steel underneath. Not so easy for you to knock this one down.

If Denver had wanted Aldon Smith, they could easily have drafted him, instead of taking Von Miller. So how would it be "crazy talk" to state that they would not likely trade Miller for Smith now?

As for your oft repeated accusation, directed at me this time, of "intellectual dishonesty," I suggest you go back and read your own posts, and let them decide who's being dishonest about what was stated. (Hint: it isn't me.)

Edit: from your post (#65 of this thread): "In addition, the addition of JJ Watt has propelled the Texans to become the #1 defense in the NFL." Sure sounds like you're saying Watt has singlehandedly "propelled" the Houston defense to a #1 status.

Now stop bothering me.

You cannot see that many people downplay an off game by Smith with excuses, because you refuse to read them. You want to see them, then just open your eyes. I challenge you, and anyone else, to go through Aldon Smith threads, and count the myriad of excuses for a game that is not that productive." If this", "If that" is what you get, which I am sure has a powerful and profound influence on voters for the DROY award.

Let me get this straight, since it appears you may be having problems understanding English these days: The Broncos would be stupid to trade Miller for Smith. No, not stupid, idiotic. Miller is a stud right now. Smith has potential to be a stud. They are two completely different leagues right now. It is not close. Only the most brash homer would say that Smith is the better player, or the one they would rather have on their team.

As for bothering, you have been my own personal stalker for who knows how long now, so when I make a comment on the board, please feel free to bypass attacking me if you are so "bothered".
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You cannot see that many people downplay an off game by Smith with excuses, because you refuse to read them. You want to see them, then just open your eyes. I challenge you, and anyone else, to go through Aldon Smith threads, and count the myriad of excuses for a game that is not that productive." If this", "If that" is what you get, which I am sure has a powerful and profound influence on voters for the DROY award.

Let me get this straight, since it appears you may be having problems understanding English these days: The Broncos would be stupid to trade Miller for Smith. No, not stupid, idiotic. Miller is a stud right now. Smith has potential to be a stud. They are two completely different leagues right now. It is not close. Only the most brash homer would say that Smith is the better player, or the one they would rather have on their team.

As for bothering, you have been my own personal stalker for who knows how long now, so when I make a comment on the board, please feel free to bypass attacking me if you are so "bothered".
Too bad that's not what you previously wrote. (Who's having touble understanding English? )

Again, no one is saying that Smith is a better player than Miller, right now. This is yet another straw man set up by you, so you can ridicule it.

There are lots of guys who post on this board. Some are quite knowledgeable about football in general, about NFL football in particular, and about the Niners specifically.

There are also alot of guys who are maybe not so knowledgeable, but who come to this board to learn more.

Unfortunately, many of them run into a guy who doesn't even try to understand their point of view, but instead belittles and ridicules them. If they respond in kind, they sometimes get banned. Really doesn't seem fair, does it?

I did not respond to you in this thread until you tried to embarrass me over a simple misspelling. (Didn't work, spelling's not that important, and I've made worse mistakes.) I am not your "personal stalker." Don't flatter yourself.

Just because I point out your logical mistakes occasionally doesn't make me a "stalker," anymore than it has made numerous other posters--who have done the same thing--your stalkers. How many other posters have you accused of that?

Is that your fallback position whenever someone consistently points out a mistake to you? "You stalkeryou."

You try to make it seem like a personal attack so you can sidestep your mistake? Argumentum ad hominem, I believe that's called. I.e.: "I didn't really say the team would go 1-5, he's just a stalker." Doesn't work as well when pointed out, does it.

Cheeers.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Dec 2, 2011 at 10:53 AM ]
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Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Too bad that's not what you wrote. (Who's having touble understanding English? )

Again, no one is saying that Smith is a better player than Miller, right now. This is yet another straw man set up by you, so you can ridicule it.

There are lots of guys who post on this board. Some are quite knowledgeable about football in general, about NFL football in particular, and about the Niners specifically.

There are also alot of guys who are maybe not so knowledgeable, but who come to this board to learn more.

Unfortunately, many of them run into a guy who doesn't even try to understand their point of view, but instead belittles and ridicules them. If they respond in kind, they sometimes get banned. Really doesn't seem fair, does it?

I did not respond to you in this thread until you tried to embarrass me over a simple misspelling. (Didn't work, spelling's not that important, and I've made worse mistakes.) I am not your "personal stalker." Don't flatter yourself.

Just because I point out your logical mistakes occasionally doesn't make me a "stalker," anymore than it has made numerous other posters--who have done the same thing--your stalkers. How many other posters have you accused of that?

Is that your fallback position whenever someone consistently points out a mistake to you? "You stalkeryou."

You try to make it seem like a personal attack so you can sidestep your mistake? Argumentum ad hominem, I believe that's called. I.e.: "I didn't really say the team would go 1-5, he's just a stalker." Doesn't work as well when pointed out, does it.

Cheeers.

LOL the stalker card is Maddogs trademark and If he uses it on you, you know you're doing something right!