Should we trade Vernon Davis?

Originally posted by Joecool:
I think we all know Vernon sucks at change in direction.

Vernon = the DHB of TE's

Wouldn't that make him the taylor mays of TE's? workout champ, the body, the size, but fails at teh basics?

I cant lie, Im definitely a VD fan, but I have to say that he hasnt been the same since he almost broke that record a while back for Td's in a season. Last game we used him like they did back in the day, as a blocking specialist TE. I have to say tho, this last game was the first time i had seen that ball placed almost perfectly on that fade route, and im telling you, i jumped up outta my seat because i knew he was gonna jump for that ball and take it to the house. Then when he didnt extend his arms at all, even if he was held a bit, I was like uh oh, this isnt the VD that I'm used too.

Its still early, and he is still one of our best players, but i think we should be even more real about our receiving squad in general. Which WR do we have on our team that can help take the attention away? We had Edwards, but he's hurt now, and Crabs, I dont know, its just sumthing about him, and honestly teams dont have any respect for any of our WR's. Now is this fact, no, just my opinion. If the opposing team gameplans around stopping Gore, and VD, what other legit weapons do we really have. I cant seeing MOrgan or Ginn stepping up as a NO 1. Shoot, not even CRabs. So the only one is Edwards, and once again, he's hurt.

So until we can get some type of consistent WR weapon that teams should always consider than he wont ever produce what he once did. IMHO

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:
Its not his fault we kept him in to block against Dallas. If anythign we need to ket him the f**king ball more

No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

OK I think this is simple if you open you mind alittle bit here. Lets name the top TEs Witten, Gates, Clark, Gonzales, VD
Lets now name there QBs Romo, Rivers, Manning, Ryan, Smith Do you see something that sticks out. We need a qb that can push a ball down the field. Only then will we see the full potental of Vernon.

And yes I know Mannings injured.

I would say the QB but Alex Smith has shown he can get the ball to a check down and there has also been many times when he's thrown the ball to Vernon who wasn't looking or there's been post game quotes saying they weren't on the same page on hot routes and stuff.

Vernon is not a shifty TE and he does not have great start/stop quickness. He is a deep threat that hasn't shown much else...no different than Ginn or DHB. A QB doesn't need a TE like this. The only routes he's been successful on has been the 7 route, deep seam route and the back side slant behind the LB's on rollouts.

That's 3 types of routes he's successful with. Teams shut those off and he's just a big body that takes up space or he's a perpetual "decoy" that we must send deep which leave Alex without his safety valve.

So all these TE playing with ProBowl QBs has nothing to do with it. Everything in this league is directly connected to the QB possition. If VD played for New England we would be saying hes the best TE in the League.

No. NE had one of the fastest players in the league with Ben Watson as their TE. He didn't really do much.

The TE position, it is extremely important to be able to be quick and aware than it is to be fast. Vernon is anything but quick and has rarely shown to be aware when running routes.

Watson broke free of one tackle to earn the first down; in all, Watson broke three tackles and outran five defenders, taking the ball 63 yards to score the touchdown. Even more notable, though, was his pursuit and tackle of Champ Bailey during the Patriots' 2005 AFC Divisional Playoff game against Denver on January 14, 2006. Bailey intercepted a Tom Brady pass in Denver's endzone, and proceeded to run it down the full length of the (near) side-line, towards New England's endzone. At the time of the interception, Watson was on the opposite side of the field from Bailey (on the far side-line), and so he had to take a diagonal pursuit the full (diagonal) length of the field in order to have a chance of catching him. Watson caught up with Bailey at New England's 2-yard lin

None of that has anything to do with VD. Your just trying to say that there similer players and there not lol. Not even close. Comparing Watson to Davis nonsence. Name me the great TE in the league right now without a ProBowl QB. Theres a reason why VD is a top 100 player. Hey where did they have Watson ranked im sure his tackle on Bailey put him over the edge. LOL

He was a first round draft pick and, similar to Vernon, he had some off the charts measurables. So, to say Vernon would do great in NE is false. He wouldn't even be able to keep up with his route assignments there.

Tell me, which part of the field has VD had the majority of his success? What do defense try to stop in terms of Vernon more than anything? Why is he THE only top TE who cannot beat double teams? Why is he the ONLY top TE who cannot effectively/consistently get the ball on the shorter routes?

So you are saying Alex is stunting Vernon? What about when Shaun Hill played effectively and Vernon was nowhere around in the shorter routes?

Just like it is fair to put two and two together when we don't see Alex make certain throws, I'm sure there's a reason why we don't see Vernon in certain routes.

No, don't trade vernon, trade Craps.He doesn't seem to care, isn't really interested in practice, doesn't seem to run crisp routes, and the hold out showed he really isn't a team guy. Vernon is, but let's get him off LOS and make him another WR. He gets so few balls thrown now, that he is being wasted on the line. Better make those passes 1 steppers tho, so vernon has to be looking the moment he leaves the line. We lost craps, we lost braylon, bring on Vernon...as a wideout. He'll get open.

Originally posted by Joecool:
He was a first round draft pick and, similar to Vernon, he had some off the charts measurables. So, to say Vernon would do great in NE is false. He wouldn't even be able to keep up with his route assignments there.

Tell me, which part of the field has VD had the majority of his success? What do defense try to stop in terms of Vernon more than anything? Why is he THE only top TE who cannot beat double teams? Why is he the ONLY top TE who cannot effectively/consistently get the ball on the shorter routes?

So you are saying Alex is stunting Vernon? What about when Shaun Hill played effectively and Vernon was nowhere around in the shorter routes?

Just like it is fair to put two and two together when we don't see Alex make certain throws, I'm sure there's a reason why we don't see Vernon in certain routes.

Can we trade some of our fans?

Originally posted by Jakemall:
Can we trade some of our fans?

why not, they sell their tickets to opposing fans

Originally posted by modninerfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Probowlers eventually carry a team for at least one game or bail that team out for at least one game. Has Vernon ever frustrated a defense and appeared as if he carried us or bailed us out?

The Rams game last year would have bailed us out if it werent for the penalty, luckily Crabtree saved the day on the next play. Vernon/Smith carried us for the Texans game, didnt win though. Cant say that was Vernons fault. Last year against the Raiders, Vernon had a Touchdown catch with 1 min left to secure the win, score: 17-9. Davis frustrates teams all the time... does he single handedly win games for us? no not often.

Lets be honest here... He's a TE. What should you really expect from him? How many times has Antonio Gates won a game all by himself? He frustrates teams to... but bail a team out? idk.

Originally posted by Joecool:
The one thing that pisses me off the most about Vernon is he tries absorb hits or dodge hits when he's running with the ball. I wish he would lower the shoulder more. Hell, Delanie rocked the DAL DB after catching a screen pass early in the DAL game.

I disagree with you big time here... Vernon has no problem with contact. The only time he curls up is to absorb a hit is when he going across the middle or jumping in the air. Try and find me a receiver who doesnt do that? When Vernon gets a full head of steam he will lower the shoulder, watch any highlight video.

And that play Delanie had against DAL? I think he would have had a 1st down had he cut back inside rather than go for the collisiion.

With all due respect Joecool, your ability to judge talent is suspect at best. I"m not saying I'm great at it, but you have a history of acting on emotion and supporting scrubs who have absolutely no talent whatsoever.

SEA game, Vernon gets that deep out route, turns upfield and tries to stop running and do whatever move but the DB tackles him backward. Vernon runs straight up and tries to juke more than he tries to plow through. There is a lot of evidence of him running straight up and I don't recall any time he ever dished out punishment.

As for the bold, the same can be said about anyone on this board. If you are talking about QB's, like I said, I backed any QB because Alex would never get it done in an offense with other holes but the other QB's would make some plays under duress. You don't need to be a talent evaluator to see that ANY QB gives us more big play potential under highly difficult situations than does Alex "ineffective" Smith. Now, he has more structure around him and is showing it which is fine by me.

And to add, other teams have taken players who looked "talentless" here and made them above average. So, I will back Delanie Walker because he has more to offer as a receiving TE than does Vernon. He was just unlucky early on with injuries and the fact that we drafted a TE at #7 who could be effective as a deep threat.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by valrod33:
Its not his fault we kept him in to block against Dallas. If anythign we need to ket him the f**king ball more

No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

OK I think this is simple if you open you mind alittle bit here. Lets name the top TEs Witten, Gates, Clark, Gonzales, VD
Lets now name there QBs Romo, Rivers, Manning, Ryan, Smith Do you see something that sticks out. We need a qb that can push a ball down the field. Only then will we see the full potental of Vernon.

And yes I know Mannings injured.

I would say the QB but Alex Smith has shown he can get the ball to a check down and there has also been many times when he's thrown the ball to Vernon who wasn't looking or there's been post game quotes saying they weren't on the same page on hot routes and stuff.

Vernon is not a shifty TE and he does not have great start/stop quickness. He is a deep threat that hasn't shown much else...no different than Ginn or DHB. A QB doesn't need a TE like this. The only routes he's been successful on has been the 7 route, deep seam route and the back side slant behind the LB's on rollouts.

That's 3 types of routes he's successful with. Teams shut those off and he's just a big body that takes up space or he's a perpetual "decoy" that we must send deep which leave Alex without his safety valve.

So all these TE playing with ProBowl QBs has nothing to do with it. Everything in this league is directly connected to the QB possition. If VD played for New England we would be saying hes the best TE in the League.

No. NE had one of the fastest players in the league with Ben Watson as their TE. He didn't really do much.

The TE position, it is extremely important to be able to be quick and aware than it is to be fast. Vernon is anything but quick and has rarely shown to be aware when running routes.

Watson broke free of one tackle to earn the first down; in all, Watson broke three tackles and outran five defenders, taking the ball 63 yards to score the touchdown. Even more notable, though, was his pursuit and tackle of Champ Bailey during the Patriots' 2005 AFC Divisional Playoff game against Denver on January 14, 2006. Bailey intercepted a Tom Brady pass in Denver's endzone, and proceeded to run it down the full length of the (near) side-line, towards New England's endzone. At the time of the interception, Watson was on the opposite side of the field from Bailey (on the far side-line), and so he had to take a diagonal pursuit the full (diagonal) length of the field in order to have a chance of catching him. Watson caught up with Bailey at New England's 2-yard lin

None of that has anything to do with VD. Your just trying to say that there similer players and there not lol. Not even close. Comparing Watson to Davis nonsence. Name me the great TE in the league right now without a ProBowl QB. Theres a reason why VD is a top 100 player. Hey where did they have Watson ranked im sure his tackle on Bailey put him over the edge. LOL

He was a first round draft pick and, similar to Vernon, he had some off the charts measurables. So, to say Vernon would do great in NE is false. He wouldn't even be able to keep up with his route assignments there.

Tell me, which part of the field has VD had the majority of his success? What do defense try to stop in terms of Vernon more than anything? Why is he THE only top TE who cannot beat double teams? Why is he the ONLY top TE who cannot effectively/consistently get the ball on the shorter routes?

So you are saying Alex is stunting Vernon? What about when Shaun Hill played effectively and Vernon was nowhere around in the shorter routes?

Just like it is fair to put two and two together when we don't see Alex make certain throws, I'm sure there's a reason why we don't see Vernon in certain routes.

Are you a coach of the 49ers. Have you coached VD in anyway. If your not then your evaluation of him is bogus. Just one play that stook out from the cowboys game. Alex Smith pick. If he would of delivered the ball to the outside shoulder of VD he would of had a completion. Good QBs put there players in a possition to make the play.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Whitten was left in to block on one play and did so. Romo scrambled to the right and Whitten then simply took 2 steps forward and turned around to be that SAFE for Romo. As Romo scrambled further, he threw a quick dart to Whitten for an 8 yard gain.

Vernon does not have these instincts to see the open spot and settle there.

Here's how that play actually breaks down. Alex sees his primary receiver is covered, he checks down for a 4 yard gain.

Your scenario requires 2 parties, and that's not Alex either.

I agree Vernon's insticts aren't spectacular, but 1,800 yards 20 touchdowns in 2 years doesn't lie. What he does well, he does better than any tight end in the league, and cannot be taken away from him. He's an absolute terror going across the stream and if you don't think that Delanie Walker wheel route touchdown pass had anything to do with Vernon going across the seam you're crazy.

Trade him for 12 7th round picks

Originally posted by modninerfan:

Originally posted by Joecool:
He was a first round draft pick and, similar to Vernon, he had some off the charts measurables. So, to say Vernon would do great in NE is false. He wouldn't even be able to keep up with his route assignments there.

Tell me, which part of the field has VD had the majority of his success? What do defense try to stop in terms of Vernon more than anything? Why is he THE only top TE who cannot beat double teams? Why is he the ONLY top TE who cannot effectively/consistently get the ball on the shorter routes?

So you are saying Alex is stunting Vernon? What about when Shaun Hill played effectively and Vernon was nowhere around in the shorter routes?

Just like it is fair to put two and two together when we don't see Alex make certain throws, I'm sure there's a reason why we don't see Vernon in certain routes.

Thanks for posting the highlight. Remember, this is a highlight and here's what I counted.

Hash Seam Routes: 11
Corner Routes: 5
Curls: 2
Rollout: 2
Sideline Nine Route: 1

Hmm, whichever poster said he makes it complicated for defenses is incorrect. If I'm a DC, it is easy to see you take away his Hash Seam Route equates to taking away most of VD.

Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Are you a coach of the 49ers. Have you coached VD in anyway. If your not then your evaluation of him is bogus. Just one play that stook out from the cowboys game. Alex Smith pick. If he would of delivered the ball to the outside shoulder of VD he would of had a completion. Good QBs put there players in a possition to make the play.

Are you a coach? Can you explain to me why Vernon is not very effective on shorter routes? We can go in circles about this. I'm only pointing out what I haven't seen him do on a consistent basis vs the other top TE's in the league.

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Trade him for 12 7th round picks

THIS

Originally posted by Jakemall:
Can we trade some of our fans?

Trade all those mute zombie fans that got punked out by the Cowboy fans last week ...That was humiliating and a low point in 49ers history, downright disgusting