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Should we trade Vernon Davis?

Should we trade Vernon Davis?

  • mod
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"I love the potential talent but he has hands of stone and alligator arms."

shut up bro... stupid statement right there.
Originally posted by 49erLegacy:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

Really? Your last line is absolutely dumb.

Do you actually believe Vernon is a great safety valve for our QB?

Do you actually think he is very quick at the shorter routes?

I have yet to see it. He is more talented than every TE in the league. Why is he only successful on certain routes?
The problem is this dam team. If your a TE or WR the Niners are a career killer. I dont even know where you are getting this idea. Obviously if Davis is getting double and triple teamed, which he is, coaches around the league disagree with you. If he does nothing else but that, he's worth his wieght in gold as it should open up things for everyone else. The problem is, we are only 2 games in the season and the second game he was kept inside to block Ware. In the Seahawks game he was barely used, but he is still our leading reciever to date and has the second longest reception of the year. We dont target him nearly enough and I dont think its because he's covered. Why do you think he had a "talk" with Harbaugh? He's seen this crap before and he wants no part of it.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by valrod33:
Its not his fault we kept him in to block against Dallas. If anythign we need to ket him the f**king ball more

No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

OK I think this is simple if you open you mind alittle bit here. Lets name the top TEs Witten, Gates, Clark, Gonzales, VD
Lets now name there QBs Romo, Rivers, Manning, Ryan, Smith Do you see something that sticks out. We need a qb that can push a ball down the field. Only then will we see the full potental of Vernon.

And yes I know Mannings injured.

I would say the QB but Alex Smith has shown he can get the ball to a check down and there has also been many times when he's thrown the ball to Vernon who wasn't looking or there's been post game quotes saying they weren't on the same page on hot routes and stuff.

Vernon is not a shifty TE and he does not have great start/stop quickness. He is a deep threat that hasn't shown much else...no different than Ginn or DHB. A QB doesn't need a TE like this. The only routes he's been successful on has been the 7 route, deep seam route and the back side slant behind the LB's on rollouts.

That's 3 types of routes he's successful with. Teams shut those off and he's just a big body that takes up space or he's a perpetual "decoy" that we must send deep which leave Alex without his safety valve.

So all these TE playing with ProBowl QBs has nothing to do with it. Everything in this league is directly connected to the QB possition. If VD played for New England we would be saying hes the best TE in the League.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
The problem is this dam team. If your a TE or WR the Niners are a career killer. I dont even know where you are getting this idea. Obviously if Davis is getting double and triple teamed, which he is, coaches around the league disagree with you. If he does nothing else but that, he's worth his wieght in gold as it should open up things for everyone else. The problem is, we are only 2 games in the season and the second game he was kept inside to block Ware. In the Seahawks game he was barely used, but he is still our leading reciever to date and has the second longest reception of the year. We dont target him nearly enough and I dont think its because he's covered. Why do you think he had a "talk" with Harbaugh? He's seen this crap before and he wants no part of it.

Do you know where he is getting double teamed? It's not that complicated for a Defense...here it is.

LB underneath, FS over = VD no impact.

Did you see how we had to double team Whitten? We had to double him EVERYWHERE on the field. Not just a seam route. That is why it was more difficult to stop him because he can get open ANYWHERE.
Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by valrod33:
Its not his fault we kept him in to block against Dallas. If anythign we need to ket him the f**king ball more

No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

OK I think this is simple if you open you mind alittle bit here. Lets name the top TEs Witten, Gates, Clark, Gonzales, VD
Lets now name there QBs Romo, Rivers, Manning, Ryan, Smith Do you see something that sticks out. We need a qb that can push a ball down the field. Only then will we see the full potental of Vernon.

And yes I know Mannings injured.

I would say the QB but Alex Smith has shown he can get the ball to a check down and there has also been many times when he's thrown the ball to Vernon who wasn't looking or there's been post game quotes saying they weren't on the same page on hot routes and stuff.

Vernon is not a shifty TE and he does not have great start/stop quickness. He is a deep threat that hasn't shown much else...no different than Ginn or DHB. A QB doesn't need a TE like this. The only routes he's been successful on has been the 7 route, deep seam route and the back side slant behind the LB's on rollouts.

That's 3 types of routes he's successful with. Teams shut those off and he's just a big body that takes up space or he's a perpetual "decoy" that we must send deep which leave Alex without his safety valve.

So all these TE playing with ProBowl QBs has nothing to do with it. Everything in this league is directly connected to the QB possition. If VD played for New England we would be saying hes the best TE in the League.

No. NE had one of the fastest players in the league with Ben Watson as their TE. He didn't really do much.

The TE position, it is extremely important to be able to be quick and aware than it is to be fast. Vernon is anything but quick and has rarely shown to be aware when running routes.

Watson broke free of one tackle to earn the first down; in all, Watson broke three tackles and outran five defenders, taking the ball 63 yards to score the touchdown. Even more notable, though, was his pursuit and tackle of Champ Bailey during the Patriots' 2005 AFC Divisional Playoff game against Denver on January 14, 2006. Bailey intercepted a Tom Brady pass in Denver's endzone, and proceeded to run it down the full length of the (near) side-line, towards New England's endzone. At the time of the interception, Watson was on the opposite side of the field from Bailey (on the far side-line), and so he had to take a diagonal pursuit the full (diagonal) length of the field in order to have a chance of catching him. Watson caught up with Bailey at New England's 2-yard lin
Harbaugh's goal is to win, not to give away pro bowl players over concern for their individual stats.
If he is double teamed all of the time then a WR should be 1on1 and open. The WRs are the ones who suck. Forget Crabtree. Ginn has improved but not enough and "Joshua" always disappears unless the 2nd string DB is covering him while the #1 takes a blow.
VD has two big problems:
  • He is an athlete first and a football player second (far, far second)
  • He still is still too much a me-first player

Singletary helped him mature a bit, but he has never shown signs of moving from elite fantasy player to elite football player. As it stands now, he has a good chance of making the pro-bowl just about every year, but he will never help us win a title nor will he help any young QB develop.
Originally posted by LionHeartofGold:
Harbaugh's goal is to win, not to give away pro bowl players over concern for their individual stats.

Too bad Harbaugh lost us one game already. More than one person is to blame for a loss but he played a role in it and he is the coach. If his goal is to win, he needs to think twice about shutting it down in second halfs.
Vernon doesn't know how to run routes and make himself available to the qb.
Originally posted by smashmouth51:
If he is double teamed all of the time then a WR should be 1on1 and open. The WRs are the ones who suck. Forget Crabtree. Ginn has improved but not enough and "Joshua" always disappears unless the 2nd string DB is covering him while the #1 takes a blow.

That's the thing. He isn't doubled all the time. He is only doubled on the over routes which is not many. He is an easy cover on short routes.
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.
Disagree... those TE have QB that can throw the ball!!!
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Ohio49ersfan:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by valrod33:
Its not his fault we kept him in to block against Dallas. If anythign we need to ket him the f**king ball more

No, that doesn't help but the main reason he's only an average TE to me is this:

He can't beat a defense when the defense is focused on him. The top tier TE's in the league get open no matter what for the most part. Whitten did it. Gonzales did it against us last year and does it vs most teams. Gates does also.

These tight ends have success when opponents focus on them.

Vernon, doesn't do much until the defense makes a mistake or the play is well designed.

OK I think this is simple if you open you mind alittle bit here. Lets name the top TEs Witten, Gates, Clark, Gonzales, VD
Lets now name there QBs Romo, Rivers, Manning, Ryan, Smith Do you see something that sticks out. We need a qb that can push a ball down the field. Only then will we see the full potental of Vernon.

And yes I know Mannings injured.

I would say the QB but Alex Smith has shown he can get the ball to a check down and there has also been many times when he's thrown the ball to Vernon who wasn't looking or there's been post game quotes saying they weren't on the same page on hot routes and stuff.

Vernon is not a shifty TE and he does not have great start/stop quickness. He is a deep threat that hasn't shown much else...no different than Ginn or DHB. A QB doesn't need a TE like this. The only routes he's been successful on has been the 7 route, deep seam route and the back side slant behind the LB's on rollouts.

That's 3 types of routes he's successful with. Teams shut those off and he's just a big body that takes up space or he's a perpetual "decoy" that we must send deep which leave Alex without his safety valve.

So all these TE playing with ProBowl QBs has nothing to do with it. Everything in this league is directly connected to the QB possition. If VD played for New England we would be saying hes the best TE in the League.

No. NE had one of the fastest players in the league with Ben Watson as their TE. He didn't really do much.

The TE position, it is extremely important to be able to be quick and aware than it is to be fast. Vernon is anything but quick and has rarely shown to be aware when running routes.

Watson broke free of one tackle to earn the first down; in all, Watson broke three tackles and outran five defenders, taking the ball 63 yards to score the touchdown. Even more notable, though, was his pursuit and tackle of Champ Bailey during the Patriots' 2005 AFC Divisional Playoff game against Denver on January 14, 2006. Bailey intercepted a Tom Brady pass in Denver's endzone, and proceeded to run it down the full length of the (near) side-line, towards New England's endzone. At the time of the interception, Watson was on the opposite side of the field from Bailey (on the far side-line), and so he had to take a diagonal pursuit the full (diagonal) length of the field in order to have a chance of catching him. Watson caught up with Bailey at New England's 2-yard lin

None of that has anything to do with VD. Your just trying to say that there similer players and there not lol. Not even close. Comparing Watson to Davis nonsence. Name me the great TE in the league right now without a ProBowl QB. Theres a reason why VD is a top 100 player. Hey where did they have Watson ranked im sure his tackle on Bailey put him over the edge. LOL
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Originally posted by Joecool:
Probowlers eventually carry a team for at least one game or bail that team out for at least one game. Has Vernon ever frustrated a defense and appeared as if he carried us or bailed us out?

The Rams game last year would have bailed us out if it werent for the penalty, luckily Crabtree saved the day on the next play. Vernon/Smith carried us for the Texans game, didnt win though. Cant say that was Vernons fault. Last year against the Raiders, Vernon had a Touchdown catch with 1 min left to secure the win, score: 17-9. Davis frustrates teams all the time... does he single handedly win games for us? no not often.

Lets be honest here... He's a TE. What should you really expect from him? How many times has Antonio Gates won a game all by himself? He frustrates teams to... but bail a team out? idk.


Originally posted by Joecool:
The one thing that pisses me off the most about Vernon is he tries absorb hits or dodge hits when he's running with the ball. I wish he would lower the shoulder more. Hell, Delanie rocked the DAL DB after catching a screen pass early in the DAL game.

I disagree with you big time here... Vernon has no problem with contact. The only time he curls up is to absorb a hit is when he going across the middle or jumping in the air. Try and find me a receiver who doesnt do that? When Vernon gets a full head of steam he will lower the shoulder, watch any highlight video.

And that play Delanie had against DAL? I think he would have had a 1st down had he cut back inside rather than go for the collisiion.

With all due respect Joecool, your ability to judge talent is suspect at best. I"m not saying I'm great at it, but you have a history of acting on emotion and supporting scrubs who have absolutely no talent whatsoever.
[ Edited by modninerfan on Sep 23, 2011 at 12:28 PM ]