ESPN Ranking NFL starting quarterbacks (Alex Smith #28)

Originally posted by fister30:
There is something different about this season. Alex won the QB battle. I believe this is the first time he did this. Maybe he just might have a decent...

The other thing that is different about this season is that Alex has shown an ability to move around in the pocket such as he has not shown before. Noteworthy are the many times "pocket presence" has been a major source of criticism.

Also noteworthy are the multitude of threads where "coaching" has been the central theme. I have no intention of re-hashing all that again. I don't feel the need. Everyone has taken up their position on that topic. However, it is also noteworthy that now, for the first time in his career, be it HC, OC or position coach, Alex has a coach who has actually played the position at a level higher than HS. No other QB in the league has had to operate under such a handicap, but the true measure of the value of coaching is the quality of the play of the player. In this case, we have seen strong evidence from Smith that he is capable of operating in the manner we all hoped for. What happened under McCarthy or Turner or Hostler or whoever, is irrelevant. The only thing that now matters is that Smith finally has a coach that has walked the path and Alex has performed like a legit NFL QB.

Forget the PS stats. There are a myriad of reasons why they are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Smith has looked like a guy who can make the plays and lead his team. What we have seen is not only pocket presence but actual demonstration of making the reads and executing the throws necessary for the WCO to work successfully. What happened the past 6 years doesn't matter. The numbers in PS don't matter. What matters is that when the OL was allowing for it, Smith did the job. Finally.

Good post DJ--one of the things that really helped Montana and Young is that Walsh was able to tell them what the D would do from week to week, so they were super prepared. Smith has not had an OC/HC who could do that with any authority or accuracy.

When I see P Manning in situations where everything is breaking down he looks erratic and frantic. Why? Because the unexpected is happening and QBs need to have a level of calm understanding in order to be effective. Harbaugh will be able to really help Smith this year preparing for the various Ds. This is not something they did much in the preseason as they were running set plays to evaluate positions.

Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

This is fundamental. I'm truly surprised that some many people don't get this.

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

This is fundamental. I'm truly surprised that some many people don't get this.

Can't see anyone winning with the 2005 Niners

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

I don't dispute this other than to point out mitigating circumstances...and to point out I do not see Smith as a bumbling, stumbling QB. He is intelligent, hard working and often looks the part of a good QB. He has lacked consistency and seems ill prepared much of the time. That will not happen as much under Harbaugh. If Smith can't turn it up a notch with a very good scheme and adequate protection I will expect JH to find another guy for the job.

As for getting coaches fired? No, bad coaches get themselves fired. So far, the coaches who were decent OCs for Smith were hired within a year to be HCs elsewhere. The ones who were not good were replaced. Nolan a good HC? No. Singletary a good HC? Absolutely not. So you would have to point out a good coach who was fired because of the QB before I would buy it. It is more common that a semi-poor coach rides the coattails of a qreat QB.

Finally, I just don't see how anyone can witness the terrible decisions made by this franchise over the past eight years and blame a young QB. Smith is just now turning the age of the average QB who becomes a starter and yet he has been forced into service from the first year when he was almost as ill-prepared as CK.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

This is fundamental. I'm truly surprised that some many people don't get this.

Can't see anyone winning with the 2005 Niners

How is this related to what Shaj just said? I sincerely hope that it's not meant ot be in the nature of a rebuttal.

Not a rebuttal, not even a full disagreement. Sometimes intelligent thoughts and statements that apply to many situations fail when they are applied to ALL situations. The fact is, we were the ugliest mess that I have seen from an NFL talent perspective in 2005, and would not have been good with any QB. Smith was decent (not good but improving) in 2006, as was the team. He looked slightly better in 2007 before he got fat stomped in Seattle. His play while injured was terrible. I don't know if Smith will ever be good, but I hope so. I don't see any QB winning with the 2005 Niners, and I do believe the team was starting to have his back near the end of the 2006 season.

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

This is fundamental. I'm truly surprised that some many people don't get this.

Can't see anyone winning with the 2005 Niners

How is this related to what Shaj just said? I sincerely hope that it's not meant ot be in the nature of a rebuttal.

Or it means Tom Brady would play like s**t too for the 05 9ers

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

I don't dispute this other than to point out mitigating circumstances...and to point out I do not see Smith as a bumbling, stumbling QB. He is intelligent, hard working and often looks the part of a good QB. He has lacked consistency and seems ill prepared much of the time. That will not happen as much under Harbaugh. If Smith can't turn it up a notch with a very good scheme and adequate protection I will expect JH to find another guy for the job.

As for getting coaches fired? No, bad coaches get themselves fired. So far, the coaches who were decent OCs for Smith were hired within a year to be HCs elsewhere. The ones who were not good were replaced. Nolan a good HC? No. Singletary a good HC? Absolutely not. So you would have to point out a good coach who was fired because of the QB before I would buy it. It is more common that a semi-poor coach rides the coattails of a qreat QB.

Finally, I just don't see how anyone can witness the terrible decisions made by this franchise over the past eight years and blame a young QB. Smith is just now turning the age of the average QB who becomes a starter and yet he has been forced into service from the first year when he was almost as ill-prepared as CK.

all franchises make bad decisions. Philadelphia just made one of their offensive coaches the head defensive coach for their team, which every zoner here would use as an excuse if that was our team, but they will still experience success, most of all because their QB is Michael Vick. You just don't notice or have reason to discuss bad decisions when you have a very, very good QB on the team who rises above everything and gives you reason to focus on the good. Bradford just got a new OC and new system, and they were also the worst team in the league 2 years ago, and he came from a non-pro style offense in college, but you won't see Rams fans making excuses because the kid just flat out plays. Greatness transcends excuses. Ineptitude begs for excuses.

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

I don't dispute this other than to point out mitigating circumstances...and to point out I do not see Smith as a bumbling, stumbling QB. He is intelligent, hard working and often looks the part of a good QB. He has lacked consistency and seems ill prepared much of the time. That will not happen as much under Harbaugh. If Smith can't turn it up a notch with a very good scheme and adequate protection I will expect JH to find another guy for the job.

As for getting coaches fired? No, bad coaches get themselves fired. So far, the coaches who were decent OCs for Smith were hired within a year to be HCs elsewhere. The ones who were not good were replaced. Nolan a good HC? No. Singletary a good HC? Absolutely not. So you would have to point out a good coach who was fired because of the QB before I would buy it. It is more common that a semi-poor coach rides the coattails of a qreat QB.

Finally, I just don't see how anyone can witness the terrible decisions made by this franchise over the past eight years and blame a young QB. Smith is just now turning the age of the average QB who becomes a starter and yet he has been forced into service from the first year when he was almost as ill-prepared as CK.

all franchises make bad decisions. Philadelphia just made one of their offensive coaches the head defensive coach for their team, which every zoner here would use as an excuse if that was our team, but they will still experience success, most of all because their QB is Michael Vick. You just don't notice or have reason to discuss bad decisions when you have a very, very good QB on the team who rises above everything and gives you reason to focus on the good. Bradford just got a new OC and new system, and they were also the worst team in the league 2 years ago, and he came from a non-pro style offense in college, but you won't see Rams fans making excuses because the kid just flat out plays. Greatness transcends excuses. Ineptitude begs for excuses.

you don't think Eagles fans are criticizing Reid for hiring Castillo?

I'm not sure what "zoners would use as an excuse if that was our team" means. An excuse for what? The 49ers equivalent is the hiring of Jim Hostler, I guess. Does anyone use that as an excuse for something, and, if so, what?

Bradford does not "flat out play." He had a pretty good rookie season overall, but is not a great player. At least not yet. His potential is great and he looks the part, but people keep talking about him like he's Dan Marino.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

I don't dispute this other than to point out mitigating circumstances...and to point out I do not see Smith as a bumbling, stumbling QB. He is intelligent, hard working and often looks the part of a good QB. He has lacked consistency and seems ill prepared much of the time. That will not happen as much under Harbaugh. If Smith can't turn it up a notch with a very good scheme and adequate protection I will expect JH to find another guy for the job.

As for getting coaches fired? No, bad coaches get themselves fired. So far, the coaches who were decent OCs for Smith were hired within a year to be HCs elsewhere. The ones who were not good were replaced. Nolan a good HC? No. Singletary a good HC? Absolutely not. So you would have to point out a good coach who was fired because of the QB before I would buy it. It is more common that a semi-poor coach rides the coattails of a qreat QB.

Finally, I just don't see how anyone can witness the terrible decisions made by this franchise over the past eight years and blame a young QB. Smith is just now turning the age of the average QB who becomes a starter and yet he has been forced into service from the first year when he was almost as ill-prepared as CK.

all franchises make bad decisions. Philadelphia just made one of their offensive coaches the head defensive coach for their team, which every zoner here would use as an excuse if that was our team, but they will still experience success, most of all because their QB is Michael Vick. You just don't notice or have reason to discuss bad decisions when you have a very, very good QB on the team who rises above everything and gives you reason to focus on the good. Bradford just got a new OC and new system, and they were also the worst team in the league 2 years ago, and he came from a non-pro style offense in college, but you won't see Rams fans making excuses because the kid just flat out plays. Greatness transcends excuses. Ineptitude begs for excuses.

you don't think Eagles fans are criticizing Reid for hiring Castillo?

I'm not sure what "zoners would use as an excuse if that was our team" means. An excuse for what? The 49ers equivalent is the hiring of Jim Hostler, I guess. Does anyone use that as an excuse for something, and, if so, what?

Bradford does not "flat out play." He had a pretty good rookie season overall, but is not a great player. At least not yet. His potential is great and he looks the part, but people keep talking about him like he's Dan Marino.

They may be complaining, they are not using it as an excuse, *because there is nothing to excuse*. And for the record, only about 300 people here used Hostler as an excuse for our poor offense, and then Jimmy Raye.

Bradford did what a #1 overall pick going to the worst team in the league is supposed to do: play solid no excuses football. It's a novel concept. Meanwhile, back in wonderland, we're still waiting.

Originally posted by Shaj:
They may be complaining, they are not using it as an excuse, *because there is nothing to excuse*. And for the record, only about 300 people here used Hostler as an excuse for our poor offense, and then Jimmy Raye.

Bradford did what a #1 overall pick going to the worst team in the league is supposed to do: play solid no excuses football. It's a novel concept. Meanwhile, back in wonderland, we're still waiting.

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

This is fundamental. I'm truly surprised that some many people don't get this.

Can't see anyone winning with the 2005 Niners

How is this related to what Shaj just said? I sincerely hope that it's not meant ot be in the nature of a rebuttal.

He's saying a good QB couldn't have even made the other 49ers players look good. QB is indeed the most important position, but at some point.. coaches need to do their job too. Can't pin it all on the QB. Also can't pin it all on coaches and QB either. Sometimes QB's and Coaches can only do so much with the talent around them.

With the 2005 49ers you had poor coaching + poor talent. That will always equate to epic failure.

Bad coaching + good talent can also = failure. See Dennis Erickson. In 2003, he had a pro-bowl QB and WR with Garcia and Owens. Had Garrison Hearst. Had on OL with a healthy Eric Heitmann, Jeremy Newberry, Ron Stone and Scott Gragg. Team went 7-9.

Other examples:
Rich Gannon / Kerry Collins on the 2004 Raiders (team went 5-11)
Jay Cutler on the Broncos in 2007 (team went 7-9 under Shanahan)
Carson Palmer on the Bengals in 2007 (team went 7-9)
Brett Favre on the Packers in 2005 (team went 4-12)
Aaron Rodgers on the Packers in 2008 (team went 6-10)
Donovan McNabb in 2005 (team went 6-10)
Kyle Orton in 2010 (team went 4-12)
John Elway in 1990 (team went 5-11)
John Elway in 1994 (team went 7-9)
Dan Marino in 1988 (team went 4-12)

Why didn't ALL of these players make everyone else around them look great in those seasons? Why didn't they all "elevate" the play of everyone around them? I'll tell you why. Because the QB can only do his job the best he can, and if everyone else fails and the team loses, you can't blame it all on the QB. Saying the rest of the team sucked because the QB didn't help to "elevate" their level of play is a total BS argument.

This isn't to say Alex is good, cause he's not. But it's to say that pinning the rest of the teams failure on him is pretty ridiculous. Alex wasn't great, but those early teams were a pile of horse crap, both in terms of talent and coaching. As evidenced above, under circumstances like the 49ers have had for a while, when those have occurred on other teams.. Not even Hall of Fame QB's were able to overcome them, and the team failed.

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Failure around you becomes pervasive when you are a bad QB. That is where we fundamentally see things differently, is relational cause and effect. There are mitigating circumstances, to be sure, but I believe great QBs make players look talented and coaches look like skilled game planners, and bad QBs make players look inept and get their coaches fired.

I don't dispute this other than to point out mitigating circumstances...and to point out I do not see Smith as a bumbling, stumbling QB. He is intelligent, hard working and often looks the part of a good QB. He has lacked consistency and seems ill prepared much of the time. That will not happen as much under Harbaugh. If Smith can't turn it up a notch with a very good scheme and adequate protection I will expect JH to find another guy for the job.

As for getting coaches fired? No, bad coaches get themselves fired. So far, the coaches who were decent OCs for Smith were hired within a year to be HCs elsewhere. The ones who were not good were replaced. Nolan a good HC? No. Singletary a good HC? Absolutely not. So you would have to point out a good coach who was fired because of the QB before I would buy it. It is more common that a semi-poor coach rides the coattails of a qreat QB.

Finally, I just don't see how anyone can witness the terrible decisions made by this franchise over the past eight years and blame a young QB. Smith is just now turning the age of the average QB who becomes a starter and yet he has been forced into service from the first year when he was almost as ill-prepared as CK.

all franchises make bad decisions. Philadelphia just made one of their offensive coaches the head defensive coach for their team, which every zoner here would use as an excuse if that was our team, but they will still experience success, most of all because their QB is Michael Vick. You just don't notice or have reason to discuss bad decisions when you have a very, very good QB on the team who rises above everything and gives you reason to focus on the good. Bradford just got a new OC and new system, and they were also the worst team in the league 2 years ago, and he came from a non-pro style offense in college, but you won't see Rams fans making excuses because the kid just flat out plays. Greatness transcends excuses. Ineptitude begs for excuses.

I'm sure I could be OC and vick's greatness would save my stupid ass too