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The NFL's # 1 Defense Thread

Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.
I think the defense can be fixed a lot easier than Alex Smith can.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 12, 2010 at 14:36:03 ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.

The point is that if you generate TO's, you win. The fact is, if we have even been an average defense, we probably would have won 3 games by now. Last year, the issue was field position and TOP for the offense. This year those excuses don't exist and the defense has actually gotten much worse.

It's not like we've been playing stellar offenses either. The ONLY top ten team in scoring we've played is #7 in Philly @ 24.4 points a game and we played them with basically, their second string offense d/t all the injuries and change in QB; a QB we knew all week we'd be playing.

Atlanta = 22.6
New Orleans - 19.8
Kansas City = 19.3
Seattle = 18.8
Didn't this D give up 17 points to freaking Kolb in one half?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.

The point is that if you generate TO's, you win. The fact is, if we have even been an average defense, we probably would have won 3 games by now. Last year, the issue was field position and TOP for the offense. This year those excuses don't exist and the defense has actually gotten much worse.

It's not like we've been playing stellar offenses either. The ONLY top ten team in scoring we've played is #7 in Philly @ 24.4 points a game and we played them with basically, their second string offense d/t all the injuries and change in QB; a QB we knew all week we'd be playing.

Atlanta = 22.6
New Orleans - 19.8
Kansas City = 19.3
Seattle = 18.8

We actually held ATL, NO, and SEA QBs to the required yardage in terms of trying to stop the passing game. This defense has gotten 5 turnovers. Give any of those teams 3 turnovers and those points per game increase.

You can't deny 15 turnovers in 5 games. We can absolutely point out huge game-changers such as the pick 6 in SEA, fumble 6 last week, and other 3 or 4 turnovers against NO. The KC game was the only one we utterly got outcoached.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.

The point is that if you generate TO's, you win. The fact is, if we have even been an average defense, we probably would have won 3 games by now. Last year, the issue was field position and TOP for the offense. This year those excuses don't exist and the defense has actually gotten much worse.

It's not like we've been playing stellar offenses either. The ONLY top ten team in scoring we've played is #7 in Philly @ 24.4 points a game and we played them with basically, their second string offense d/t all the injuries and change in QB; a QB we knew all week we'd be playing.

Atlanta = 22.6
New Orleans - 19.8
Kansas City = 19.3
Seattle = 18.8

We actually held ATL, NO, and SEA QBs to the required yardage in terms of trying to stop the passing game. This defense has gotten 5 turnovers. Give any of those teams 3 turnovers and those points per game increase.

You can't deny 15 turnovers in 5 games. We can absolutely point out huge game-changers such as the pick 6 in SEA, fumble 6 last week, and other 3 or 4 turnovers against NO. The KC game was the only one we utterly got outcoached.

Nobody is saying TO's don't kill you...but then again, getting no TO's is the same concept so it's a wash even when one of those TO's is on "defense." And the bigger question is, how many of those TO's actually resulted in points that could be contributed to the offense? Meaning, the offensive TO put the defense's back against the wall which lead to easy points for the opposition.

Let's dive into it...let's look at the most recent game:

Philly's Drives:
07:53 1 05:30 PHI 25 10 75 Touchdown - this one's on the defense 100% as the momentum was in our favor after the opening drive TD by the offense
00:16 1 03:31 SFO 45 7 31 Field Goal - it's a wash even after the Gore fumble here. 3 and out here or even two first downs (20 yards) here make for a long, tough FG in swirling winds. But no, we give up 31 yards and give up the easy FG
07:47 2 02:41 PHI 3 5 14 Punt - this TO is like an ideal punt so no biggie given they are backed up at their own 3 yard line
03:03 2 01:10 PHI 47 3 53 Touchdown - this is on ST coverage and the defense. Jackson returns punt from 25 to own 47 then Philly drives 53 yards for a TD in three plays
00:43 2 00:27 PHI 37 3 -2 Fumble - good job by the defense but we missed the FG
07:35 4 03:00 PHI 36 6 37 Game Winning Field Goal - On the defense when it mattered most
00:28 4 00:28 PHI 47 2 -1 End of Game - Final INT, game over

Gore also fumbled after the huge 25 yard first down to Davis from their own 18 to their 43. They drove it down to our 30 and turned it over on downs.

So, when it's all said and done, the offense put the defense against the wall "maybe" one time with a TO. The Smith fumble/TD had nothing to do with the defense. On the flip side, the defense caused one real TO and the offense did it's part but we missed the FG. And on the same token, the DEFENSE got no other TO's, gave up one long TD drive, then an easy 3 play TD, they could have stopped the first FG and then gave up 37 yards for their winning FG.

Even with the turnovers, the defense appeared to tank when it mattered most...right after our opening drive TD when the crowd was in it and at the end of the game when we needed a stop. ST coverage was poor on one play and we missed a FG. That hurt but nobody is talkng about Nedney's miss. Two offensive TO's hurt us, the Alex fumble and the last INT of the game thanks to Davis. The rest were just momentum killers but didn't affect the game.

I'd lay most of the blame on the defense this game esp. how easily this second string offense marched down the field on us with ease...when it mattered most! As for the rest, ST coverage was good all game and the retrun game was terrific and the offense was THE reason we were even in this game...esp. with all the huge 3rd down plays they made.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 12, 2010 at 18:59:20 ]
Originally posted by nyc49erking:
For how many years are going to keep saying this defense is good ? They never stop a good passing team, never get any pass rush on the opposing qb, and THEY CANT EVER STOP A TEAM IN THE FOURTH QUARTER, EVER.

This defense has let us down, time after time, after time. Everybody loves Willis, but the brother cant even recognize a simply screen pass play. The heat needs to be put on the defensive players and Manusky, his job should not be safe either. They dont produce in the future, send them all home.

Patrick willis is not responsible for stopping the screen 100% of the time, especially when the d-line should be the 1st people to recognize it, he's just 1 of 11 players on the defense. He's IMO not playing as well as he usually does but we cant blame him for the majority of the things wrong with the defense.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.

The point is that if you generate TO's, you win. The fact is, if we have even been an average defense, we probably would have won 3 games by now. Last year, the issue was field position and TOP for the offense. This year those excuses don't exist and the defense has actually gotten much worse.

It's not like we've been playing stellar offenses either. The ONLY top ten team in scoring we've played is #7 in Philly @ 24.4 points a game and we played them with basically, their second string offense d/t all the injuries and change in QB; a QB we knew all week we'd be playing.

Atlanta = 22.6
New Orleans - 19.8
Kansas City = 19.3
Seattle = 18.8

We actually held ATL, NO, and SEA QBs to the required yardage in terms of trying to stop the passing game. This defense has gotten 5 turnovers. Give any of those teams 3 turnovers and those points per game increase.

You can't deny 15 turnovers in 5 games. We can absolutely point out huge game-changers such as the pick 6 in SEA, fumble 6 last week, and other 3 or 4 turnovers against NO. The KC game was the only one we utterly got outcoached.

Nobody is saying the TO's don't kill you...but then again, getting no TO's is the same concept so it's a wash even when one of those TO's is on "defense." And the bigger question is, how many of those TO's actually resulted in points that could be contributed to the offense? Meaning the offensive TO put the defense's back against the wall...

Let's dive into it...let's look at the most recent game:

Philly's Drives:
07:53 1 05:30 PHI 25 10 75 Touchdown - this one's on the defense 100% as the momentum was in our favor after the TD by the offense
00:16 1 03:31 SFO 45 7 31 Field Goal - it's a wash even after the Gore fumble here. 3 and out here or even two first downs (20 yards) here make for a long, tough FG in swirling winds. But no, we give up 31 yards and give up the easy FG
07:47 2 02:41 PHI 3 5 14 Punt - this TO is like an ideal punt so no biggie given they are backed up at their own 3 yard line
03:03 2 01:10 PHI 47 3 53 Touchdown - this is on ST coverage and the defense. Jackson returns punt from 25 to own 47 then Philly drive 53 yards for a TD in three plays
00:43 2 00:27 PHI 37 3 -2 Fumble - good job by the defense and we missed the FG
07:35 4 03:00 PHI 36 6 37 Game Winning Field Goal - On the defense when it mattered most
00:28 4 00:28 PHI 47 2 -1 End of Half - Final INT, game over

Gore also fumbled after the huge 25 yard first down to Davis from their own 18 to their 43. They drove it down to our 30 and turned it over on downs.

So, when it's all said and done, the offense put the defense against the wall "maybe" one time with a TO. The Smith fumble/TD which has nothing to do with the defense. On the flip side, the defense caused one real TO and the offense did it's part but we missed the FG. And on the same token, the DEFENSE got no other TO's, gave up one long TD drive, then an easy 3 play TD, they could have stopped the first FG and then gave up 37 yards for their winning FG.

Even with the turnovers, the defense appeared to tank when it mattered most...right after our opening drive TD when the crowd was in it and at the end of the game when we needed a stop. ST coverage was poor on one play and we missed a FG. That hurt but nobody is talkng about Nedney's miss. Two offensive TO's hurt us, the Alex fumble and the last INT of the game thanks to Davis. The rest were just momentum killers but didn't affect the game.

I'd lay most of the blame on the defense this game esp. how easily this second string offense marched down the field on us with ease...when it mattered most! As for the rest, ST coverage was good all game and the retrun game was terrific and the offense was THE reason we were even in this game...esp. with all the huge 3rd down plays we made.

I don't know if I would call Kolb a 2nd stringer. The guy was pegged to start the season and only lost his job because of injury and his backup just happened to be Michael Vick.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I don't know if I would call Kolb a 2nd stringer. The guy was pegged to start the season and only lost his job because of injury and his backup just happened to be Michael Vick.

Sorry, should have clarified...meant his oline was decimated with injuries as were his starting RB and WR's. Then they ended up having even more injuries on defense. Their team only had one wing and still beat us.
The fact is, they put 17 points on the board on us in the first half without a hitch. This D is middle of the pack, at best.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No, there are exceptions. I never said we must be a great defense. The side to most coins is that you turn the ball over and most likely, you lose.

The point is that if you generate TO's, you win. The fact is, if we have even been an average defense, we probably would have won 3 games by now. Last year, the issue was field position and TOP for the offense. This year those excuses don't exist and the defense has actually gotten much worse.

It's not like we've been playing stellar offenses either. The ONLY top ten team in scoring we've played is #7 in Philly @ 24.4 points a game and we played them with basically, their second string offense d/t all the injuries and change in QB; a QB we knew all week we'd be playing.

Atlanta = 22.6
New Orleans - 19.8
Kansas City = 19.3
Seattle = 18.8

We actually held ATL, NO, and SEA QBs to the required yardage in terms of trying to stop the passing game. This defense has gotten 5 turnovers. Give any of those teams 3 turnovers and those points per game increase.

You can't deny 15 turnovers in 5 games. We can absolutely point out huge game-changers such as the pick 6 in SEA, fumble 6 last week, and other 3 or 4 turnovers against NO. The KC game was the only one we utterly got outcoached.

Nobody is saying TO's don't kill you...but then again, getting no TO's is the same concept so it's a wash even when one of those TO's is on "defense." And the bigger question is, how many of those TO's actually resulted in points that could be contributed to the offense? Meaning, the offensive TO put the defense's back against the wall which lead to easy points for the opposition.

Let's dive into it...let's look at the most recent game:

Philly's Drives:
07:53 1 05:30 PHI 25 10 75 Touchdown - this one's on the defense 100% as the momentum was in our favor after the opening drive TD by the offense
00:16 1 03:31 SFO 45 7 31 Field Goal - it's a wash even after the Gore fumble here. 3 and out here or even two first downs (20 yards) here make for a long, tough FG in swirling winds. But no, we give up 31 yards and give up the easy FG
07:47 2 02:41 PHI 3 5 14 Punt - this TO is like an ideal punt so no biggie given they are backed up at their own 3 yard line
03:03 2 01:10 PHI 47 3 53 Touchdown - this is on ST coverage and the defense. Jackson returns punt from 25 to own 47 then Philly drive 53 yards for a TD in three plays
00:43 2 00:27 PHI 37 3 -2 Fumble - good job by the defense and we missed the FG
07:35 4 03:00 PHI 36 6 37 Game Winning Field Goal - On the defense when it mattered most
00:28 4 00:28 PHI 47 2 -1 End of Half - Final INT, game over

Gore also fumbled after the huge 25 yard first down to Davis from their own 18 to their 43. They drove it down to our 30 and turned it over on downs.

So, when it's all said and done, the offense put the defense against the wall "maybe" one time with a TO. The Smith fumble/TD which has nothing to do with the defense. On the flip side, the defense caused one real TO and the offense did it's part but we missed the FG. And on the same token, the DEFENSE got no other TO's, gave up one long TD drive, then an easy 3 play TD, they could have stopped the first FG and then gave up 37 yards for their winning FG.

Even with the turnovers, the defense appeared to tank when it mattered most...right after our opening drive TD when the crowd was in it and at the end of the game when we needed a stop. ST coverage was poor on one play and we missed a FG. That hurt but nobody is talkng about Nedney's miss. Two offensive TO's hurt us, the Alex fumble and the last INT of the game thanks to Davis. The rest were just momentum killers but didn't affect the game.

I'd lay most of the blame on the defense this game esp. how easily this second string offense marched down the field on us with ease...when it mattered most! As for the rest, ST coverage was good all game and the retrun game was terrific and the offense was THE reason we were even in this game...esp. with all the huge 3rd down plays we made.

What a biased review. That's the only way you can come to that conclusion after the offense turned the ball over FIVE times including a fumble returned for a TD.
Originally posted by Leathaface:
What a biased review. That's the only way you can come to that conclusion after the offense turned the ball over FIVE times including a fumble returned for a TD.

Biased? How is this biased? The mass majority in ths thread as well as those in the Manusky should be fired! and Now that I have rewatched the game... thread, save for a couple of you actually believe the defense was a major weakness despite the TO's; which as I showed, only one really had an effect on the outcome. I have yet to see anything logical posted on your part. What I posted was fact. What you posted was...well, what IS it you are posting about? If you want to post something "unbiased" I'm sure we'd all love to read it. Until then......what you said.

Sorry, links didn't take at first...

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 12, 2010 at 20:16:43 ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
What a biased review. That's the only way you can come to that conclusion after the offense turned the ball over FIVE times including a fumble returned for a TD.

Biased? How is this biased? The mass majority in ths thread as well as those in the and [url=http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/thread.php?num=147407&page=4]Manusky should be fired Now that I have rewatched the game...[/url] thread, save for a couple of you actually believe the defense was a major weakness despite the TO's; which as I showed, only one really had an effect on the outcome. I have yet to see anything logical posted on your part. What I posted was fact. What you posted was...well, what IS it you are posting about? If you want to post something "unbiased" I'm sure we'd all love to read it. Until then......what you said.