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Coaching Wasn't Nearly as Bad as You Think!

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

Oakland-Niner,

Bud, I think you just want to be controversial here for the sake of controversy.Let's just use one of your examples here:


Quote:
It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

So tell me honestly: Would you ask a FB that's not accustomed to catching the ball, nor is as quick or fast relative to not, one but two backs on your team to be the recipient of a critical, go-ahead touchdown?

Seriously. I would like to hear you argue why Norris is a better option than Gore - or why Norris is a better option than Westbrook. I'd like to hear why attempting a pass to Vernon Davis who tied TEs in TD catches in a season. If you can logically and coherently convince me of that, than I buy the rest of your argument. If not, it's a complete logical fail here.

Take a shot.

So did that comment come with a pat on the head?

Well lets see, where should I start......

If you expect me to argue that Norris is a better runner than Gore, you are barking up the wrong tree. Gore is clearly a much better player than Norris, but guess what, the defense knows that and is waiting for it. What where Gores stats at the end of the game again? Oh yeah, 17 carries for 38 yards...That means he was stuffed multipul times at the line of scrimmage. But you would of rather handed him the ball? Besides, you of all people should no that Gore has never really been a very good goal line back.

That brings us to Davis. He is a great weapon. As you pointed out he had 13 Tds. What you failed to mentioned unfortantly is that 9 of those TDs came from that one deep post play they loved to run last year. Not to mention he also dropped a very easy goal line game winning TD last year, I think that was against the Seahawks. And again, how many eyes do you think where on Davis?

As far as Westbrook is concerned, doesn't he have a hamstring issue? And if they did sub him in for one play do you really think they would have been waiting for the old Jimmy Raye up the gut run by Gore? I doubt he would of been allowed to run free like Norris. The whole reason the play worked so well was because it had the appearance of "business as usual."

I stand by my words. Norris is not a bad option. He has caught a few passes in his time. He didn't run the perfect route, but most NFL QB would of completed it to him. Smith should have thrown it directly to Norris. Instead, he added extra pressure by lobbing the ball in the air and letting it hang. Once your FB is turned around you should throw a f**kIN rainbow ball. Period.

As for Crabtree, he and Smith had zero chemistry all game.

Is that good enough for you, BUD...

Sorry it's not.... man. I trust Gore to get a TD before I trust Norris. Westbrook HAD hamstring issues but Singletary clearly said he would be available and he wasn't on the injury list at all. Yes Norris was open, but there's a reason why you leave Moran Norris open ... because there's a lower chance he won't execute properly with your WR. He's not one of the teams bona fide playmakers.

In crunch time, you throw the ball to, you involve your playmakers - always.

Just sayin.

Dude, get off your high horse. Clearly you are bias. Your argument is that Norris was open because the other team thought he sucked.....Why ask me to respond if you are too close minded to conceed my points are valid.

Again, it was Smiths fault.

Wait I'm on a high horse because I wanted the ball to be handed to/thrown to one of the team's known play-makers?
Lets see, where to start.

Same running play to try and convert short yardage at least 3 times with the 3rd and 1. Failed--OC calling the plays

Anyone besides me notice, almost on EVERY second down in the first half, we had a running play. Even when we came out in the 2nd half same running plays that stalled.... OC calling the plays.

NOw dont get me wrong, this takes away nothing from the players accountability. But if your not given the plays that utilize our strengths, then that does go on the coach.

People even tried to misconstrue Alex's words when he said he doesnt want to have to improvise constantly. Someone tried to turn it and say he doesnt want to do it. But Smith answered Best, oh and Sing too at the end of the press conference when asked about Raye. They both said the same thing... "Thats what the OC is for"

While the players definitely left plays on the field. It's the Coaches that are responsible for putting them once again in the position to be successful. And really only in the first half, maybe first quarter, did that happen.

So brotha Oakland, while i agree with a lot of the reasons u gave on the players faltering. You'd be lying to yourself, if at any point in the game, you can say u didnt see half the plays the niners were gonna run. How many times did they line up, and u say to yourself, that plays going nowhere before it even starts. I did this almost every quarter after the first one.

Even when stretching the field. A good coaching system would say if they know Gore is gonna be the main focal point. Lets throw a screw in the system and Let them defend the pass first, to open up the run game if its not going to work. But no, like a stubborn horse. We ran tons of times when we were at 2nd and over 5 yds, for what like 1 or 2 yds.

NFL network, ESPN, even Jimmy Johnson on gameday stated the playcalling had no spark whatsoever. So u mean ur the only one that cant see the coaching is a Part of the problem. Not the only one, but a big part.

With Smith and company i look at it like this, he may very well, fall apart and never become a true NFL QB. But i say give him and the O, all the tools, and plays they need to be successful.... Then if they still dont make it happen, u know what has to be done. But dont put them in a detrimental situation, then speak of it's how the players fault they werent successful.
The Niners coaches can't even figure out how to get a play call in time (before qb mic gets cut off). It doesn't get more pathetic then that!


All the coaching and playcalling improvements in the world won't fix a qb that can't hit a wide open receiver two yards away.
Originally posted by nflguy49:
The Niners coaches can't even figure out how to get a play call in time (before qb mic gets cut off). It doesn't get more pathetic then that!


All the coaching and playcalling improvements in the world won't fix a qb that can't hit a wide open receiver two yards away.

Im wit u on that, or a receiver that cant catch a pass directly in his hands, whether too hard or not. Favre threw one of the hardest passes in the league, whether short or long. And his WR's used to say how they'd have to ice their hands after a game or practice. But no one made an excuse as to why the ball wasnt caught. And i wonder why. PRobably because it was caught.

Sometimes i hate some of the passes thrown, but the job of being a WR is when things arent perfect or breakdown, u make a play. i bet you Rice would of caught both those passes that Crabtree didnt, or Morgan bending his body the right way. Or if that had been delanie walker catching that pass other than moran norris. As a WR if the only time u can make a play is when the ball is perfect all the time, then half of the leagues WR's wouldnt have the yards they do.
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.

Originally posted by NorthNiner:
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.


Baloney. Before you slit your wrists just check, for instance, the draft. Dark times! BS. Utter BS. The TDon era was a dark time. Joe Thomas. But this is one game.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

Norris ball was catchable. And with nobody around him don't matter if it's a laser or lob, you gotta catch that ball.

I agree with the Pass downfield to Ginn, but Ginn never even turned around to track it. Bad form all way round.

Pick 6 was Tree not cutting off his Route at the correct time where he was supposed to.

1st INT was not a shovel pass. Took his eyes off the ball before it got there and caromed off his right shoulder pad.

I was pissed that the call went the wrong way on that PI. No way in hell Nate was guilty of holding. You could SEE he wasn't guilty of it when it happened at full speed. IR showed that as well.

IMHO that call was tantamount to the Refs picking the Shattle up dusting them off using mom's miracle cleaner to clean off the booboo and giving them a 50 gallon drum size shot of momentum. It was that bad.

And how about when the Crew leader was about fawning all over Carrol? Wonder if that guy went to USC.

Alex called the Timeouts in the 1st half not Sing. But let's be honest he HAD to call them. Plays just are not getting in fast enough. Either Raye or our QB Coach is to blame here. Or maybe it's a little of both.

At the time I was glad we were going for it in the Red Zone. I still like that our Coach had the balls and the confidence in his players to do that. Sucked that it didn't go in our favor but it's one game, Shattle had our playbook and we got away from the Run in the 1st half. Have to admit that Carrol had his guys prepared for this game.

The Stick better be hoppin when they come to play there.

~Ceadder
  • JC49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 169
You're defending the coaches by blaming the player’s poor performance. Ultimately the player’s preparation is the coach’s responsibility. Yes they can't play the game for them but this team just failed at every level. To say they do not look well coached is an understatement.

As for Raye I was thinking any coordinator for two years in a row would be better than a new one. I was wrong. Raye's play calling has been consistently criticized by many. Maybe he called a couple plays that should have worked but you can't consider him a good play caller.

And if where talking about the play calling why can't this team even get a play called. For the second season we are having trouble with a basic operation that I haven't ever noticed any other team routinely struggle with. That's incompetent and beyond embarrassing.

I have always and only ever been a Niner fan. I couldn't bring myself to root for anyone else. But there are days I wish I could. I also wish those days didn't span a decade.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by NorthNiner:
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.


Baloney. Before you slit your wrists just check, for instance, the draft. Dark times! BS. Utter BS. The TDon era was a dark time. Joe Thomas. But this is one game.

Still though, you have to admit it doesn't look good when we come out in the first game of the season and make the same mistakes that have plagued us in the past. And run the same, boring offensive schemes. We haven't taken the step forward that everyone expected, and look like we've regressed. Not good.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.
The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

That play changed the game. If not for that bad call it would have been a punt, but should have been a pick 6. They gave up after that play.
Originally posted by MBniner:
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by NorthNiner:
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.


Baloney. Before you slit your wrists just check, for instance, the draft. Dark times! BS. Utter BS. The TDon era was a dark time. Joe Thomas. But this is one game.

Still though, you have to admit it doesn't look good when we come out in the first game of the season and make the same mistakes that have plagued us in the past. And run the same, boring offensive schemes. We haven't taken the step forward that everyone expected, and look like we've regressed. Not good.

I agree. But there is a big difference between this, and Dark Times. Appart from sounding ridiculously pompous, two weeks ago we were celebrating how well things were going. This is a setback. Not Dark Times.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by MBniner:
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by NorthNiner:
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.


Baloney. Before you slit your wrists just check, for instance, the draft. Dark times! BS. Utter BS. The TDon era was a dark time. Joe Thomas. But this is one game.

Still though, you have to admit it doesn't look good when we come out in the first game of the season and make the same mistakes that have plagued us in the past. And run the same, boring offensive schemes. We haven't taken the step forward that everyone expected, and look like we've regressed. Not good.

I agree. But there is a big difference between this, and Dark Times. Appart from sounding ridiculously pompous, two weeks ago we were celebrating how well things were going. This is a setback. Not Dark Times.

No, but what it is is a step in direction of validating the fact that Smith has wasted a lot of this organization's time. He's not the QB they are hoping he will be, and a lot of people knew that a while ago. That and the fact that we need to get an OC that's last paycheck wasn't cut by social security.
Originally posted by MBniner:
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by MBniner:
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by NorthNiner:
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Our whole organization sucks. It's dark times for niner fans.


Baloney. Before you slit your wrists just check, for instance, the draft. Dark times! BS. Utter BS. The TDon era was a dark time. Joe Thomas. But this is one game.

Still though, you have to admit it doesn't look good when we come out in the first game of the season and make the same mistakes that have plagued us in the past. And run the same, boring offensive schemes. We haven't taken the step forward that everyone expected, and look like we've regressed. Not good.

I agree. But there is a big difference between this, and Dark Times. Appart from sounding ridiculously pompous, two weeks ago we were celebrating how well things were going. This is a setback. Not Dark Times.

No, but what it is is a step in direction of validating the fact that Smith has wasted a lot of this organization's time. He's not the QB they are hoping he will be, and a lot of people knew that a while ago. That and the fact that we need to get an OC that's last paycheck wasn't cut by social security.

No they didn't "know" it a while ago. They were biased against him. They may turn out with the benefit of hindsight to have been right, but don't confuse an opinion with a fact.

Raye may well not last out the season. Who do we replace him with?
Jimmy Raye sucks, stop making excuses
I know it sucks to change an OC in the middle of a season... no time to install an offense, etc... BUT - with the talent around the Offense (not counting QB), perhaps we could entertain bringing in a WCO O-Coordinator, and a QB who could thrive in that type of offense (even Carr might work here). The WCO is QB friendly, and it has enough variations to allow for the type of talent we have.

I hate the idea of yet another OC, but if it ain't Smith as the QB, and the coordinator gets a WCO-friendly/experienced QB (there are some - including some journeymen out there), we might actually have a better (and less offensively predictable) season.

Keep Sing as HC, but he should focus strictly on motivation and the D side of the ball. Let an OC with WCO history take the offensive reins. Even if the coordinator doesn't stick around, the system will sustain itself - remember the Niners of the 80s, 90s? There is a LOT of coaching and QB talent around the league that is familiar with our "grand old offense".

Bring back the WCO. I know football, having played it for years, and I understand what changing an Offense means, but in this case it is worth it. In a weak Division we can still win it if we act now!