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Offensive post-game analysis (Week 5)

Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
are you saying Raye's predictable screens (what is about 20 a game) are what is slowing down, making Hill a free target to opposing defenders that seem to blow right on past and through our OL? Causing Hill to throw the ball when receivers are no where near ready? Really? Is that what you are saying?


I agree....there is no confidence in Hill.

Do you honestly think that we'd be throwing so many screens if we had a QB with a better arm under Center? Shoot I bet we're working with maybe a quarter of Raye's Offensive playbook. If that.

~Ceadder

Martz had the same QB and make him look like the second coming.

He made him look like the second coming at a time when NO TEAM had film on him. That's due to not being a Starter in his previous years in the NFL. A whopping total of what 2 quarters of play? Mostly handing off the ball?

Now teams KNOW that he's the Starter they have taken the time to dissect his game and what he is or ISN'T going to do in certain situations. And more and more we are seeing EXACTLY what he was to begin with. A Backup. No more no less.

But hey if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself the same old lies that has fooled most of the fans.

~Ceadder

BTW, Hill had already started in a few games in 2007.

Those are not lies, they are facts. Great OCs develop their players. If you don't wanna talk about Hill, how about Warner, Green, Kitna, etc.

I'm sorry but Raye is a joke.

It's a combination of things. With Martz, Hill was a decent QB. With Turner, Smith was a decent QB. With Raye, Hill is a horrible QB. The combo just isn't working. Maybe if we had Tom Brady, Raye's system would be working. We don't. Something has to give.

To me the problem remains the same: crappy OC.

2006 - Norv Turner - a MUCH less talented team, that moved the ball a lot better.

2007 - Jim Hostler - a better than than the one Norv's coached, and he still managed to field one of the wors offenses in league history.

2008 - Mike Martz - Moved the ball pretty darn well, despite the sacks.

2009 - Jimmy Raye - Virtually the same team Martz had, and a 2007-type offense.


Now, I know logic is not in high demand in Niner Talk, but when I look at tha picture, I see one variable that leads to different results.
  • B650
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,205
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
are you saying Raye's predictable screens (what is about 20 a game) are what is slowing down, making Hill a free target to opposing defenders that seem to blow right on past and through our OL? Causing Hill to throw the ball when receivers are no where near ready? Really? Is that what you are saying?


I agree....there is no confidence in Hill.

Do you honestly think that we'd be throwing so many screens if we had a QB with a better arm under Center? Shoot I bet we're working with maybe a quarter of Raye's Offensive playbook. If that.

~Ceadder

Martz had the same QB and make him look like the second coming.

He made him look like the second coming at a time when NO TEAM had film on him. That's due to not being a Starter in his previous years in the NFL. A whopping total of what 2 quarters of play? Mostly handing off the ball?

Now teams KNOW that he's the Starter they have taken the time to dissect his game and what he is or ISN'T going to do in certain situations. And more and more we are seeing EXACTLY what he was to begin with. A Backup. No more no less.

But hey if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself the same old lies that has fooled most of the fans.

~Ceadder

BTW, Hill had already started in a few games in 2007.

Those are not lies, they are facts. Great OCs develop their players. If you don't wanna talk about Hill, how about Warner, Green, Kitna, etc.

I'm sorry but Raye is a joke.

It's a combination of things. With Martz, Hill was a decent QB. With Turner, Smith was a decent QB. With Raye, Hill is a horrible QB. The combo just isn't working. Maybe if we had Tom Brady, Raye's system would be working. We don't. Something has to give.

To me the problem remains the same: crappy OC.

2006 - Norv Turner - a MUCH less talented team, that moved the ball a lot better.

2007 - Jim Hostler - a better than than the one Norv's coached, and he still managed to field one of the wors offenses in league history.

2008 - Mike Martz - Moved the ball pretty darn well, despite the sacks.

2009 - Jimmy Raye - Virtually the same team Martz had, and a 2007-type offense.


Now, I know logic is not in high demand in Niner Talk, but when I look at tha picture, I see one variable that leads to different results.

I agree with you. Hill and Smith aren't that good, but they can be given the right OC. The Jimmy Raye hiring was a f**king joke, in my opinion. Imagine we draft a young QB with our pick next year, and Jimmy Raye is still our OC. Another holdout?

I say we put Alex Smith under center and sit retired on duty Bruce.
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
If I've said this once I've said it a hundred times here.

Raye's playcalling is NOT the problem. He has to use what he's given and he HAS done this. He's used Davis and Walker and Martz hardly if EVER included them in his Offense. He runs the ball with Gore. Something that Martz didn't do very much of either.

The Receivers. If they could count on seeing the ball consistently deeper than 10-15 yards, I think they would start catching the ball more.

The OLine is it great? No. But they did get the job done over the previous 4 weeks. Only against the Rams and now the Falcons have they not been consistent.

There is a reason for the above issues NOT working properly.

Raye has to call Passing plays that are extremely limited. He can't open up the playbook because the guy under Center doesn't have a consistent arm.

The OLine has to protect him longer(still don't understand the 3 second drills in Camp) because he holds onto the F'n ball way too long. He's looking for the homerun pass.

The Receivers are going to CONTINUE to have issues holding onto his passes because they are getting their @$$3$ kicked in short yardage. The Opposing Defense sets up camp there and makes Hill beat their coverage. He RARELY does it, so they will continue to make him uncomfortable in the pocket and knock the Receivers around.

This is NOT new. This is something that has been happening since last season. Only people are so stoned on the Ws' they can't see straight.

And here I am shaking my head at how simple it really is. It's a team loss because it's a team sport. But one simple fix and things could be MUCH different.

~Ceadder

I agree, it's all about the Oline. we can bash Hill and the WR's all we want but it all starts up front. we need consistent play out of the OL to give Hill time to throw and the WR's time to get open.
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Come on, Martz had an inferior receiving corp (Morgan was only a rookie) and he still made Hill look like the real thing. We moved the ball pretty darn well with him.

That's true.
Originally posted by BHulman:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
If I've said this once I've said it a hundred times here.

Raye's playcalling is NOT the problem. He has to use what he's given and he HAS done this. He's used Davis and Walker and Martz hardly if EVER included them in his Offense. He runs the ball with Gore. Something that Martz didn't do very much of either.

The Receivers. If they could count on seeing the ball consistently deeper than 10-15 yards, I think they would start catching the ball more.

The OLine is it great? No. But they did get the job done over the previous 4 weeks. Only against the Rams and now the Falcons have they not been consistent.

There is a reason for the above issues NOT working properly.

Raye has to call Passing plays that are extremely limited. He can't open up the playbook because the guy under Center doesn't have a consistent arm.

The OLine has to protect him longer(still don't understand the 3 second drills in Camp) because he holds onto the F'n ball way too long. He's looking for the homerun pass.

The Receivers are going to CONTINUE to have issues holding onto his passes because they are getting their @$$3$ kicked in short yardage. The Opposing Defense sets up camp there and makes Hill beat their coverage. He RARELY does it, so they will continue to make him uncomfortable in the pocket and knock the Receivers around.

This is NOT new. This is something that has been happening since last season. Only people are so stoned on the Ws' they can't see straight.

And here I am shaking my head at how simple it really is. It's a team loss because it's a team sport. But one simple fix and things could be MUCH different.

~Ceadder

It is evident to me that there is very little confidence in what Hill can do that is reflected in the playcalling.

It is also evident there is little confidence in pass blocking for them to call for pass plays that takes more than 2 seconds to develop. It's a real mess.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by BHulman:
Originally posted by Grigga2021:
Our play calling is the most predictable, vanilla plays in the league.

WE LEAD THE NFL IN 3 AND OUTS.

Even when the are far behind Raye refuses to take shots down the field.

THERE ARE RECEIVERS RUNNING DEEPER ROUTES. The QB st isn't throwing them the ball. It's up to the QB to make those throws. This is the prcise reason why Brady Quinn got benched in Cleveland. Unwilling to throw the ball down the field. Has nothing to do with the OC.


Our lack of execution is what makes Raye look bad. It's not the calls. It's the players.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
are you saying Raye's predictable screens (what is about 20 a game) are what is slowing down, making Hill a free target to opposing defenders that seem to blow right on past and through our OL? Causing Hill to throw the ball when receivers are no where near ready? Really? Is that what you are saying?


I agree....there is no confidence in Hill.

Do you honestly think that we'd be throwing so many screens if we had a QB with a better arm under Center? Shoot I bet we're working with maybe a quarter of Raye's Offensive playbook. If that.

~Ceadder

Martz had the same QB and make him look like the second coming.

He made him look like the second coming at a time when NO TEAM had film on him. That's due to not being a Starter in his previous years in the NFL. A whopping total of what 2 quarters of play? Mostly handing off the ball?

Now teams KNOW that he's the Starter they have taken the time to dissect his game and what he is or ISN'T going to do in certain situations. And more and more we are seeing EXACTLY what he was to begin with. A Backup. No more no less.

But hey if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself the same old lies that has fooled most of the fans.

~Ceadder

BTW, Hill had already started in a few games in 2007.

Those are not lies, they are facts. Great OCs develop their players. If you don't wanna talk about Hill, how about Warner, Green, Kitna, etc.

I'm sorry but Raye is a joke.

It's a combination of things. With Martz, Hill was a decent QB. With Turner, Smith was a decent QB. With Raye, Hill is a horrible QB. The combo just isn't working. Maybe if we had Tom Brady, Raye's system would be working. We don't. Something has to give.

To me the problem remains the same: crappy OC.

2006 - Norv Turner - a MUCH less talented team, that moved the ball a lot better.

2007 - Jim Hostler - a better than than the one Norv's coached, and he still managed to field one of the wors offenses in league history.

2008 - Mike Martz - Moved the ball pretty darn well, despite the sacks.

2009 - Jimmy Raye - Virtually the same team Martz had, and a 2007-type offense.


Now, I know logic is not in high demand in Niner Talk, but when I look at tha picture, I see one variable that leads to different results.

The only person on that list that had a motivated Larry Allen, a Justin Smiley and a healthy Jonas Jennings is Norv Turner.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by BHulman:
Originally posted by Grigga2021:
Our play calling is the most predictable, vanilla plays in the league.

WE LEAD THE NFL IN 3 AND OUTS.

Even when the are far behind Raye refuses to take shots down the field.

THERE ARE RECEIVERS RUNNING DEEPER ROUTES. The QB st isn't throwing them the ball. It's up to the QB to make those throws. This is the prcise reason why Brady Quinn got benched in Cleveland. Unwilling to throw the ball down the field. Has nothing to do with the OC.


Our lack of execution is what makes Raye look bad. It's not the calls. It's the players.


Oh he is throwing the deep ball alright.........he just doesnt come anywhere close to the WR so that it is actually a threat to the defense.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by djfullshred:
Originally posted by BHulman:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
If I've said this once I've said it a hundred times here.

Raye's playcalling is NOT the problem. He has to use what he's given and he HAS done this. He's used Davis and Walker and Martz hardly if EVER included them in his Offense. He runs the ball with Gore. Something that Martz didn't do very much of either.

The Receivers. If they could count on seeing the ball consistently deeper than 10-15 yards, I think they would start catching the ball more.

The OLine is it great? No. But they did get the job done over the previous 4 weeks. Only against the Rams and now the Falcons have they not been consistent.

There is a reason for the above issues NOT working properly.

Raye has to call Passing plays that are extremely limited. He can't open up the playbook because the guy under Center doesn't have a consistent arm.

The OLine has to protect him longer(still don't understand the 3 second drills in Camp) because he holds onto the F'n ball way too long. He's looking for the homerun pass.

The Receivers are going to CONTINUE to have issues holding onto his passes because they are getting their @$$3$ kicked in short yardage. The Opposing Defense sets up camp there and makes Hill beat their coverage. He RARELY does it, so they will continue to make him uncomfortable in the pocket and knock the Receivers around.

This is NOT new. This is something that has been happening since last season. Only people are so stoned on the Ws' they can't see straight.

And here I am shaking my head at how simple it really is. It's a team loss because it's a team sport. But one simple fix and things could be MUCH different.

~Ceadder

It is evident to me that there is very little confidence in what Hill can do that is reflected in the playcalling.

It is also evident there is little confidence in pass blocking for them to call for pass plays that takes more than 2 seconds to develop. It's a real mess.

Yes. It really is quite simple. We are very limited on offense not because of the coaching/play calling, but simply because of the talent.


1) This is what happens when you don't have consistent pass protection. I wish somebody would go back through all the games this year and count up the pressure's on the QB, and all the times we failed to execute because of said pressure. It's damn hard to compete when your essentially playing two downs for half the series you have the ball, because your getting your ass whooped in pass protection for one of those down's out of 3 every other series.


2) This is what happens when you have a QB with a noodle arm who can't hit the sidelines accurately, the out routes with some zip, quickly, consistently, more than 10 yard's down the field. Defenses simply have a much smaller field to defend....and your in deep s**t (offensively) should you ever not have the game in control because the defense will just keep tightening the noose on how much field you can play with, until they suffocate you. Eventually you will only get the dump off, and even then...who ever catches it is going to get his ass clobbered on the spot.

This is why we are playing the style of game we have been playing (ball control)...Hill's talent level has limitations. He simply has a ceiling on his talent level, and it's not very high. Add to the mix an o-line who is not consistent in pass protection, and you are going to lose more than you will win if try to play any other type of ball than we have been.
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by BHulman:
Originally posted by Grigga2021:
Our play calling is the most predictable, vanilla plays in the league.

WE LEAD THE NFL IN 3 AND OUTS.

Even when the are far behind Raye refuses to take shots down the field.

THERE ARE RECEIVERS RUNNING DEEPER ROUTES. The QB st isn't throwing them the ball. It's up to the QB to make those throws. This is the prcise reason why Brady Quinn got benched in Cleveland. Unwilling to throw the ball down the field. Has nothing to do with the OC.


Our lack of execution is what makes Raye look bad. It's not the calls. It's the players.


Oh he is throwing the deep ball alright.........he just doesnt come anywhere close to the WR so that it is actually a threat to the defense.

By the time the "PUNT", I mean the pass goes down, the corner is waiting to slap the pass from the receivers hands.
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
are you saying Raye's predictable screens (what is about 20 a game) are what is slowing down, making Hill a free target to opposing defenders that seem to blow right on past and through our OL? Causing Hill to throw the ball when receivers are no where near ready? Really? Is that what you are saying?


I agree....there is no confidence in Hill.

Do you honestly think that we'd be throwing so many screens if we had a QB with a better arm under Center? Shoot I bet we're working with maybe a quarter of Raye's Offensive playbook. If that.

~Ceadder

Martz had the same QB and make him look like the second coming.

He made him look like the second coming at a time when NO TEAM had film on him. That's due to not being a Starter in his previous years in the NFL. A whopping total of what 2 quarters of play? Mostly handing off the ball?

Now teams KNOW that he's the Starter they have taken the time to dissect his game and what he is or ISN'T going to do in certain situations. And more and more we are seeing EXACTLY what he was to begin with. A Backup. No more no less.

But hey if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself the same old lies that has fooled most of the fans.

~Ceadder

BTW, Hill had already started in a few games in 2007.

Those are not lies, they are facts. Great OCs develop their players. If you don't wanna talk about Hill, how about Warner, Green, Kitna, etc.

I'm sorry but Raye is a joke.

It's a combination of things. With Martz, Hill was a decent QB. With Turner, Smith was a decent QB. With Raye, Hill is a horrible QB. The combo just isn't working. Maybe if we had Tom Brady, Raye's system would be working. We don't. Something has to give.

To me the problem remains the same: crappy OC.

2006 - Norv Turner - a MUCH less talented team, that moved the ball a lot better.

2007 - Jim Hostler - a better than than the one Norv's coached, and he still managed to field one of the wors offenses in league history.

2008 - Mike Martz - Moved the ball pretty darn well, despite the sacks.

2009 - Jimmy Raye - Virtually the same team Martz had, and a 2007-type offense.


Now, I know logic is not in high demand in Niner Talk, but when I look at tha picture, I see one variable that leads to different results.

The only person on that list that had a motivated Larry Allen, a Justin Smiley and a healthy Jonas Jennings is Norv Turner.

Fair enough. Still, Martz didn't have neither of them and still fielded our best O in years.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
are you saying Raye's predictable screens (what is about 20 a game) are what is slowing down, making Hill a free target to opposing defenders that seem to blow right on past and through our OL? Causing Hill to throw the ball when receivers are no where near ready? Really? Is that what you are saying?


I agree....there is no confidence in Hill.

Do you honestly think that we'd be throwing so many screens if we had a QB with a better arm under Center? Shoot I bet we're working with maybe a quarter of Raye's Offensive playbook. If that.

~Ceadder

Martz had the same QB and make him look like the second coming.

He made him look like the second coming at a time when NO TEAM had film on him. That's due to not being a Starter in his previous years in the NFL. A whopping total of what 2 quarters of play? Mostly handing off the ball?

Now teams KNOW that he's the Starter they have taken the time to dissect his game and what he is or ISN'T going to do in certain situations. And more and more we are seeing EXACTLY what he was to begin with. A Backup. No more no less.

But hey if it makes you feel better, keep telling yourself the same old lies that has fooled most of the fans.

~Ceadder

Bingo. Teams look at the film, they see he's not attempting to make certain throws most of the time, they adjust accordingly. With Hill, they are able to squeeze everybody inside very successfully. They can shrink the field. You can't do that with somebody who can hit all the routes accurately and with zip, including the deep ball.
  • krizay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 14,924
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by krizay:


The only person on that list that had a motivated Larry Allen, a Justin Smiley and a healthy Jonas Jennings is Norv Turner.

Fair enough. Still, Martz didn't have neither of them and still fielded our best O in years.

I'm sure this will be taken the wrong way by my followers but never stopped me before!

Martz also had his TE in to block more. (As did Norv) They forced our receivers to be the leading guys thus getting the ball down the field more. Instead of dumping it off to his safety valve whether he's looking for it or not.


EDIT: do you see a pattern here? between "two guys that knows football" or "are good/great OC's" to 2 "dumbs**ts who can't call plays"

[ Edited by krizay on Oct 12, 2009 at 13:05:54 ]
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by krizay:


The only person on that list that had a motivated Larry Allen, a Justin Smiley and a healthy Jonas Jennings is Norv Turner.

Fair enough. Still, Martz didn't have neither of them and still fielded our best O in years.

I'm sure this will be taken the wrong way by my followers but never stopped me before!

Martz also had his TE in to block more. (As did Norv) They forced our receivers to be the leading guys thus getting the ball down the field more. Instead of dumping it off to his safety valve whether he's looking for it or not.

That's pretty good insight.

Still, my point remains: the hiring of Raye was a BIG mistake.