OLB's in the 3-4/Sack Stats

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Originally posted by nyfl9erfan:
I too see the points raised above, including yours. I'd still say that if we are keeping our opponents passing to the 10th best based on QB rating, we are getting the job done. Can it be better? Certainly.

I might also suggest that our 3-4 is more of a 1-gap as far as the dline goes compared to the 'better 3-4's. We are also lackingt the dominant NT that is to occupy the oline therefore freeing up the OLB's.

My net at this point is they are getting the job done but it can be better. I like, most of the posters would like to see more sacks in general, and specifically by the OLB's...and it would be nice to see safety, corner, and MLB blitzes. Of course, it must be within the context of the scheme, the opponent, and down and game situation.

I don't think we are radically disagreeing...

You bet, two sides of the same coin here. I subscribe that the 10th best stat is due to a stellar secondary more than as a result of solid and consistent pressure from the front 7, in particular, the OLB's. I said it before and I'll say it again, this defense is built backwards with the front 7 relying on the secondary, not the other way around. In short, the pressure we are getting more often then not is as a result of good coverage which allows our big d-linemen to get there. That said, QB's still have ample time to pass (see Brett Favre's 50 yard game-winning pass with 4 rushers).

I agree that we're missing that dominant NT though Franklin is playing well, he's still moveable and is currently ranked 16th against the run where we're ranked 2nd (Smith) & 9th (Sopoaga) with the help of Manny & Haralson playing pseudo DE's at the LOS against the run. He is doing a better job of splitting the 1 gaps and penetrating and getting in the backfield which is a key for us and allows the OLB's and DE's to collapse the pocket. He's terrible in the 2-gap.

I agree that the scheme is a critical component of the success of this team. I used the TBC-example of that. And I could NOT agree more with you. We need to be playing our fhyical corners up at the LOS, tight, press and run CB/safety blitzes off those assinments. Manusky, is still hesitant to use Willis/Spikes to overload sides for blitzing or blitzes up the middle and I don't know why given Willis' speed. Perhaps he doesn't think he has the pass rush ability? Afraid their will be a big gap in the middle? Will did have a terrible game in coverage last game so perhaps that may be an issue. Maybe the issue relies more with Spikes thinking he can't risk rushing Willis b/c he doesn't have the confidence in Spikes to occupy Willis' void?

Anyhow, I'll continue to monitor and update these stats as the year progresses but I think it's already safe to say, this is still a major weakness for us and while we're disguising it well, eventually, it will bite us in the butt (e.g. get Favre'd again).

Originally posted by Gore_21:

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Are you guys not reading through this thread?

Again, Lawson/Haralson have combined for 138 rushing attempts (their sole responsibility) and combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

As a TEAM, we are doing a solid job at putting pressure on the QB (mostly b/c of our stellar secondary) but it's NOT coming from the two people it should in a 3-4 (the OLB's). It's a big issue and has been for over 6 years now.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 2, 2009 at 09:34:34 ]

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gore_21:

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Are you guys not reading through this thread?

Again, Lawson/Haralson have combined for 138 rushing attempts (their sole responsibility) and combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

As a TEAM, we are doing a solid job at putting pressure on the QB (mostly b/c of our stellar secondary) but it's NOT coming from the two people it should in a 3-4 (the OLB's). It's a big issue and has been for over 6 years now.

THANK YOU! I'm tired of all this "Getting good pressure is just as good as a sack" garbage. The bottom line is our OLBs are not getting to the QB in time. The only time they do, it's thanks to the great coverage of our secondary. Lawson just isn't a pass rusher, and Haralson looks kinda slow. (anyone else noticed that? lingering effects from hip injury in preseason?)

The best pass rushers on this team are DEs, Smith and RayMac. Kinda strange to see in a 3-4

Originally posted by AKfanster:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gore_21:

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Are you guys not reading through this thread?

Again, Lawson/Haralson have combined for 138 pass rushing attempts (their sole responsibility) and combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

As a TEAM, we are doing a solid job at putting pressure on the QB (mostly b/c of our stellar secondary) but it's NOT coming from the two people it should in a 3-4 (the OLB's). It's a big issue and has been for over 6 years now.

THANK YOU! I'm tired of all this "Getting good pressure is just as good as a sack" garbage. The bottom line is our OLBs are not getting to the QB in time. The only time they do, it's thanks to the great coverage of our secondary. Lawson just isn't a pass rusher, and Haralson looks kinda slow. (anyone else noticed that? lingering effects from hip injury in preseason?)

The best pass rushers on this team are DEs, Smith and RayMac. Kinda strange to see in a 3-4

Granted, Haralson has faired better then Lawson with 1 sack & 12 QB Hits/Pressures and 4 Stops, he still is rushing mostly behind Smith and should be much more successful then he is thus far. It does appear he isn't as quick this year but then again, he's not used to rushing 71 of the 120 plays he's in on either. He averaged 48 snaps a game last year. This year he's up to 60 through two games. I wouldn't be surprised if he wears down and/or gets injured again. ProFootballFocus does have him ranked #2 overall amongst OLB's in the 3-4 looking at their more-comprehensive stats. I think the bigger issue is still scheme by Manusky, putting he and Lawson in predictable pseudo-DE positions (next) to Sopoaga and Smith instead of rushing behind them OFF the LOS or shooting gaps in delay blitzes in the o-line. Haralson has the ability to bull rush, speed rush, run stunts and shoot gaps. Manny does not. Manusky is still not utilizing the OLB's to the best of their abilities. Not that it hasn't been stated already but we NEED to start developing Brooks more over Manny's SAM spot and working Harris in to keep these guys fresh. Manny is averaging 62 snaps a game.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by AKfanster:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gore_21:

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Are you guys not reading through this thread?

Again, Lawson/Haralson have combined for 138 pass rushing attempts (their sole responsibility) and combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

As a TEAM, we are doing a solid job at putting pressure on the QB (mostly b/c of our stellar secondary) but it's NOT coming from the two people it should in a 3-4 (the OLB's). It's a big issue and has been for over 6 years now.

THANK YOU! I'm tired of all this "Getting good pressure is just as good as a sack" garbage. The bottom line is our OLBs are not getting to the QB in time. The only time they do, it's thanks to the great coverage of our secondary. Lawson just isn't a pass rusher, and Haralson looks kinda slow. (anyone else noticed that? lingering effects from hip injury in preseason?)

The best pass rushers on this team are DEs, Smith and RayMac. Kinda strange to see in a 3-4

Granted, Haralson has faired better then Lawson with 1 sack & 12 QB Hits/Pressures and 4 Stops, he still is rushing mostly behind Smith and should be much more successful then he is thus far. It does appear he isn't as quick this year but then again, he's not used to rushing 71 of the 120 plays he's in on either. He averaged 48 snaps a game last year. This year he's up to 60 through two games. I wouldn't be surprised if he wears down and/or gets injured again. ProFootballFocus does have him ranked #2 overall amongst OLB's in the 3-4 looking at their more-comprehensive stats. I think the bigger issue is still scheme by Manusky, putting he and Lawson in predictable pseudo-DE positions (next) to Sopoaga and Smith instead of rushing behind them OFF the LOS or shooting gaps in delay blitzes in the o-line. Haralson has the ability to bull rush, speed rush, run stunts and shoot gaps. Manny does not. Manusky is still not utilizing the OLB's to the best of their abilities. Not that it hasn't been stated already but we NEED to start developing Brooks more over Manny's SAM spot and working Harris in to keep these guys fresh. Manny is averaging 62 snaps a game.

In last weeks game, Brooks was on the field for running downs in place of Haralson. If this keeps up, that should cut down on Haralson's play count and keep him fresher through-out the game and later in the season. I'd rather see Brooks play on passing downs in place of Lawson, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Even the other back-up OLB, Harris, has better pass rush skills than Lawson, but he's only played on the special teams thus far.
The coaching staff must see something in Lawson that I don't. He just isn't strong enough to push around opposing OTs and he has problems shedding smaller blockers (RBs, WRs). I think Lawson has improved, but he isn't the best option on passing downs IMO.

Originally posted by AKfanster:
In last weeks game, Brooks was on the field for running downs in place of Haralson. If this keeps up, that should cut down on Haralson's play count and keep him fresher through-out the game and later in the season. I'd rather see Brooks play on passing downs in place of Lawson, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Even the other back-up OLB, Harris, has better pass rush skills than Lawson, but he's only played on the special teams thus far.
The coaching staff must see something in Lawson that I don't. He just isn't strong enough to push around opposing OTs and he has problems shedding smaller blockers (RBs, WRs). I think Lawson has improved, but he isn't the best option on passing downs IMO.

Good point and now that you mention it, it IS interesting that he took snaps from Haralson's WILL spot (and played it to perfection in the 3 snaps he was in there). I think Manny is getting the Alex Smith-pass from the coaching staff, first round pick with injuries and is going to be given every opportunity to keep his job to no end but in this case, there is no Shaun Hill that is given a chance to compete with him (so far). If so, it might be Brooks this year or a 1st rounder or FA next year.

I know many fans try and justify his "game" with anything un-sack related but the facts still show that his overall game isn't too hot either and he just isn't a good fit for a 3-4. Period. Get him in a 4-3 though and I'd think he'd shine much more.

Perhaps we could do what the Seahawks did and trade him (ala Julian Peterson) for someone who's a better fit for our team (or defense, in particular).

He did have his best run-support game of his Niner-career last game in MN. But unfortunatelty, that's not where we need him. We need him getting to Favre ON TIME on the last play and not be tired or worn down from working to stop the run - that's what we have Willis/Spikes Goldson and aggressive run-supporting CB's for.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by lamontb:
In short the Niners just don't have a pass rusher on this team point blank. Besides from Haralson who is putting in a lot of effort I just don't see it from any LB on this roster. The d line3 has been playing lights out, but yet still no real outside rush. This is the week tha i expect to finally see Manny beat somebody one on one and make a play. But once again i'm probably expecting something from Manny that he just isn't able to do.

Yup! manusky has also been switching Manny/Haralson a lot too but neither have been effective in this regards. This is why I want them to start working Brooks in more b/c he seems to be a better fit for the 3-4 in terms of his skill-set. Having just one guy in there who can rush opens up opportunities for other guys as well. Both Sopoaga & Smith have played fantstasic so far opening things up for them both but the only ones who've cashed in are the d-linemen and in particular, McDonald who leads the team with 2 sacks in limited snaps.

PS: Screw Nolan and his #1 ranked defense!!!

Maybe he has more talent to work with?

Manny just needs more time to develope, just like the number one pick DE he played with--Mario Williams. It took that cat 3 years to really develope into his potential. Manny has been used improperly for the first 3 years and I think--hope he will settle into his potential. I always thought he was responsible for Mario Williams college career.

Aloha

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Gore_21:

Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Sacks are overrated. Our pass-rush pwas very god against ARI and MIN, not so much agaisnt SEA.

Agreed and we beat the snot out of Warner and Favre. Well, Hasselback too but just not by sacking him. I'd take the QB hurrying and getting knocked down all day over getting no pressure except for 2 or 3 sacks.

Are you guys not reading through this thread?

Again, Lawson/Haralson have combined for 138 rushing attempts (their sole responsibility) and combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

As a TEAM, we are doing a solid job at putting pressure on the QB (mostly b/c of our stellar secondary) but it's NOT coming from the two people it should in a 3-4 (the OLB's). It's a big issue and has been for over 6 years now.

I'm glad you are using "per-play" statistics to demonstrate your point, because they are they only reasonably accurate statistic.

However, are you using "per-play" statistics for all of your earlier points?

For example, our defense is "ranked" somewhere in the middle of the league, but what statistic determines that ranking?

Per-offensive drive, I bet we are top 5 in punts forced.

No one ever talks about this "stat," but I think that "punts forced per-drive" is the best defensive statistical measure possible.

Our offense keeps going 3n'out, but our defense keeps giving them the ball back.

On the flip side, our defense has to face more offensive drives than most teams because of our inept offense.

Two years ago, we were top 3 in the league in forced punts.

Its actually the same old story of the last 4 years, with three exceptions:
1) Last year, our offense did not constantly go 3n'out.
2) Our defense is much better than it has been in 4 years.
3) We are not turning the ball over a ton. Obviously, the conservative philosophy does deserve some credit for this.

Our defense might give up X amount of yards per game and Y amount of points, but that's because they face a ton of offensive possessions.

We easily have a top ten defense.

But it will never get statistical credit until our offense stops constantly going 3n'out.

Originally posted by SanFranAddic:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by lamontb:
In short the Niners just don't have a pass rusher on this team point blank. Besides from Haralson who is putting in a lot of effort I just don't see it from any LB on this roster. The d line3 has been playing lights out, but yet still no real outside rush. This is the week tha i expect to finally see Manny beat somebody one on one and make a play. But once again i'm probably expecting something from Manny that he just isn't able to do.

Yup! manusky has also been switching Manny/Haralson a lot too but neither have been effective in this regards. This is why I want them to start working Brooks in more b/c he seems to be a better fit for the 3-4 in terms of his skill-set. Having just one guy in there who can rush opens up opportunities for other guys as well. Both Sopoaga & Smith have played fantstasic so far opening things up for them both but the only ones who've cashed in are the d-linemen and in particular, McDonald who leads the team with 2 sacks in limited snaps.

PS: Screw Nolan and his #1 ranked defense!!!

Maybe he has more talent to work with?

Oh come on!

Last year, would you have said that? Denver had one of the worse defenses in the NFL.

Are their players all different this year?

Denver has had a weak schedule, but there is no escaping it, Nolan is doing a good job. Like it or not.

Originally posted by BrianGO:
I'm glad you are using "per-play" statistics to demonstrate your point, because they are they only reasonably accurate statistic.

However, are you using "per-play" statistics for all of your earlier points?

For example, our defense is "ranked" somewhere in the middle of the league, but what statistic determines that ranking?

Per-offensive drive, I bet we are top 5 in punts forced.

No one ever talks about this "stat," but I think that "punts forced per-drive" is the best defensive statistical measure possible.

Our offense keeps going 3n'out, but our defense keeps giving them the ball back.

On the flip side, our defense has to face more offensive drives than most teams because of our inept offense.

Two years ago, we were top 3 in the league in forced punts.

Its actually the same old story of the last 4 years, with three exceptions:
1) Last year, our offense did not constantly go 3n'out.
2) Our defense is much better than it has been in 4 years.
3) We are not turning the ball over a ton. Obviously, the conservative philosophy does deserve some credit for this.

Our defense might give up X amount of yards per game and Y amount of points, but that's because they face a ton of offensive possessions.

We easily have a top ten defense.

But it will never get statistical credit until our offense stops constantly going 3n'out.

Good post BrianGO. Yes, I am using per play. Combined, they have rushed the QB on passing plays 138 times, played the run 76 times and dropped back in coverage 30 times.

As far as the rest of your post goes, you are talking about collective defensive stats and this thread is only focused on the OLB's as compared to the other OLB's in the 3-4 only.

Overall defensive rankings are based on one stat alone - total yards allowed. While I agree this is a small determinent of the overall effectiveness of a defense, it IS how team defenses are ranked unfortunately.

But if you look at the top defenses as of today, Denver #1, Giants #2 & Jets #3, there IS a strong correlation with their ranking with the amount of pressure they put on offenses and note, two of those three teams are 3-4 defenses and even further, the OLB's contribute to 54% of their respective teams overall sacks which is my overall point as we rank near the bottom. It's a weakness.

But if you'd like to start or expand a thread on team defense, I'd be happy to objectively support your cause!

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by SanFranAddic:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by lamontb:
In short the Niners just don't have a pass rusher on this team point blank. Besides from Haralson who is putting in a lot of effort I just don't see it from any LB on this roster. The d line3 has been playing lights out, but yet still no real outside rush. This is the week tha i expect to finally see Manny beat somebody one on one and make a play. But once again i'm probably expecting something from Manny that he just isn't able to do.

Yup! manusky has also been switching Manny/Haralson a lot too but neither have been effective in this regards. This is why I want them to start working Brooks in more b/c he seems to be a better fit for the 3-4 in terms of his skill-set. Having just one guy in there who can rush opens up opportunities for other guys as well. Both Sopoaga & Smith have played fantstasic so far opening things up for them both but the only ones who've cashed in are the d-linemen and in particular, McDonald who leads the team with 2 sacks in limited snaps.

PS: Screw Nolan and his #1 ranked defense!!!

Maybe he has more talent to work with?

Oh come on!

Last year, would you have said that? Denver had one of the worse defenses in the NFL.

Are their players all different this year?

Denver has had a weak schedule, but there is no escaping it, Nolan is doing a good job. Like it or not.

I agree, Nolan (can you detect my bitterness?), has done a nice job and has become bi-polar and has turned the Broncos into an ultra-AGGRESSIVE pass-rushing defense. Keep in mind though, that Nolan passed over Elvis twice in the draft too (when he was the FACE/VOICE of OUR franchise).

Originally posted by whole49yards:
Manny just needs more time to develope, just like the number one pick DE he played with--Mario Williams. It took that cat 3 years to really develope into his potential. Manny has been used improperly for the first 3 years and I think--hope he will settle into his potential. I always thought he was responsible for Mario Williams college career.

Aloha

While you may have a point, Mario started playing in a 3-4 defense if I'm not mistaking and if that's the case, unless you're Richard Seymore or Justin Smith, you're not going to be a visible player. Mario never sucks and his skill-set was never really in queston. Eventually, he was worked into a system that worked better for him and the defense overall.

In this point, it's Manny's skill-set that is in question and how he fits into the 3-4 defense. While he may need more time to develop, he's clearly showed to date that he seriously struggles disengaging blockers and getting consistent pressure on QB's which IS the staple of a 3-4.

Ironically, the one team he does seem to do well against is...wait for it...the Rams. The Rams are to Manny as the Hawks are to Gore.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by whole49yards:
Manny just needs more time to develope, just like the number one pick DE he played with--Mario Williams. It took that cat 3 years to really develope into his potential. Manny has been used improperly for the first 3 years and I think--hope he will settle into his potential. I always thought he was responsible for Mario Williams college career.

Aloha

While you may have a point, Mario started playing in a 3-4 defense if I'm not mistaking and if that's the case, unless you're Richard Seymore or Justin Smith, you're not going to be a visible player. Mario never sucks and his skill-set was never really in queston. Eventually, he was worked into a system that worked better for him and the defense overall.

In this point, it's Manny's skill-set that is in question and how he fits into the 3-4 defense. While he may need more time to develop, he's clearly showed to date that he seriously struggles disengaging blockers and getting consistent pressure on QB's which IS the staple of a 3-4.

Ironically, the one team he does seem to do well against is...wait for it...the Rams. The Rams are to Manny as the Hawks are to Gore.

Two 1st round picks next year. One for a RT and the other for a OLB.