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Crabtree Discussion Thread

Originally posted by SVcabron1980:
Hey Maddog, who has more leverage, Crabtree or the 9ers?

Now, that is an excellent question.

I would say the Niners hold more leverage. They can still trade him from the March 1 to 2010 draft window. Without that ability, losing their first rounder is a big blow. Franchises that need premium talent can't afford to lose their first rounders.

If the Niners did not have the ability to trade him, I'd say that each side has equal leverage.

The Niners are the ones holding the cash, and Crabtree risks a smaller contract if he re-enters the draft in 2010. It is not a guarantee to be drafted lower, but being drafted higher would be an outside shot. This is a solid draft class, with a WR who grades out higher in Dez Bryant. I will add that the injuries to Sam Bradford and Jermiane Gresham show that the draft is volatile, and Crabtree could be a top 10 pick again, if he continues to look sharp in workouts, as Dilfer stated recently.

The leverage Crabtree holds is that he cannot be forced to play for the Niners, and if Deion Sanders in true in his statements, there are some teams out there in the NFL who are willing to throw big money at him next year. Sanders' statement adds a ton of leverage to Crabtree in that the market is willing to pay Crabtree something that is outside that 10th overall slot.

Final note: I honestly do not believe that total dollars and cents is the core issue. I believe it is the idea of DHB receiving a gigantic contract, with half the talent as Crabtree. I believe (once again, nobody knows anything...so I hesitate to make any bold statements) that Crabtree is really at war with the idea that he knows he should have been a top 4, 5, 7 pick, but his injury pushed him down the board to 10.

Both sides have leverage, and I really think a compromise has to be agreed upon where both sides can claim some form of victory, and save face.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Sep 10, 2009 at 14:42:46 ]
The 49ers have all the leverage. They have the money and they own exclusive rights to Crabtree. All Crabtree has is the ability to ruin his career and lose millions of dollars by sitting out the season.
Originally posted by VaBeachNiner:
Crabtree wants his money.


who doesnt? but crabtree sucks for wanting too much of it too soon.
Originally posted by nflguy49:
The 49ers have all the leverage. They have the money and they own exclusive rights to Crabtree. All Crabtree has is the ability to ruin his career and lose millions of dollars by sitting out the season.

How many times will people robotically make this first statement above. It is a mindless statement. Crabtree can sit out the season. That is his leverage.

Why is this so complicated?
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.

He will lose way more than he would gain holding out. He was drafted at the 10th slot so it is what it is. He will sign. Parker thinks our fronto office is weak and once he finds out it's not he will sign. The Niners won't miss him but Crabs will miss the money. You can't miss what you don't have applies to the Niners but not Crabs. If someone honestly thinks he will be better off sitting out then I have an everlasting gobstopper to sell you. I doubt Crabs is that stupid.
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Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by nflguy49:
The 49ers have all the leverage. They have the money and they own exclusive rights to Crabtree. All Crabtree has is the ability to ruin his career and lose millions of dollars by sitting out the season.

How many times will people robotically make this first statement above. It is a mindless statement. Crabtree can sit out the season. That is his leverage.

Why is this so complicated?

Currently all he stands to lose is money not his career.
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Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.

That is Mike Sando's opinion. That does not make it right.

The 49ers do not have anyone at WR with the playmaking potential of Michael Crabtree. The 49ers did need a playmaker at WR and have for quite a few years now.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by nflguy49:
The 49ers have all the leverage. They have the money and they own exclusive rights to Crabtree. All Crabtree has is the ability to ruin his career and lose millions of dollars by sitting out the season.

How many times will people robotically make this first statement above. It is a mindless statement. Crabtree can sit out the season. That is his leverage.

Why is this so complicated?

And who will that hurt more? The Niners that have several other WRs on the team, or the player who will not get drafted as high next year because we won't let him work out for other teams until after draft day...

I don't see how he has any leverage; but, with that said, he has nothing to gain by signing before Saturday...

[ Edited by D_Niner on Sep 10, 2009 at 14:50:58 ]
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

As for my arguments, I have written extensively in this thread and in another thread. In some posts, they were as long as a typical newspaper article. It would take another hour or so to retype the enter argument, but please feel free to dig back a couple hundred pages if you wish.

As for the value that Crabtree could be traded for, nobody knows at this point. It may be that a team is willing to offer a mid-late first rounder, or something outside the first round. Each team will need to assess their needs after the season.

Regarding his special situation that you have referred to multiple times, do you agree with Deion that Crab's should be paid in the $30mil range...or do you agree that, that is crazy?

I think if the Niners offered something very close to DHB money, that Crabtree would sign. However, since I am not there at the table, there is no way for me to know.

Is he worth $30 million? In total money, yes. That would come out to $6 million/season. That is not much more than Raji, who picked up $28. 5 million. To me, I think the solution is to offer a six year deal, worth $42 million, and $18 million in guaranteed money. The guaranteed money would match Raji's, and his overall contract would surpass DHB's in total money (although the per-year average would be less).

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Sep 10, 2009 at 14:51:25 ]
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Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.

He will lose way more than he would gain holding out. He was drafted at the 10th slot so it is what it is. He will sign. Parker thinks our fronto office is weak and once he finds out it's not he will sign. The Niners won't miss him but Crabs will miss the money. You can't miss what you don't have applies to the Niners but not Crabs. If someone honestly thinks he will be better off sitting out then I have an everlasting gobstopper to sell you. I doubt Crabs is that stupid.

If Crabtree lights it up elsewhere the fans will miss him unless we can manage to get another playmaking WR. The fan will look back at the mistake we made by not attempting to pay him more money when we had the chance. Crabtree will come out the bigger winner IMHO in the situation if things turn out that way.
I honestly think we're gonna get screwed if we don't sign him...when we're able to trade his rights again (some time before the next draft), teams won't offer us s**t saying that they'll just wait to draft him. So we're gonna end up settling for like a 3rd rounder or something, who knows.

We need him on our team so we don't waste a draft pick more than anything else. It was a #10 overall f**king pick. We can't get zero out of it.
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.

He will lose way more than he would gain holding out. He was drafted at the 10th slot so it is what it is. He will sign. Parker thinks our fronto office is weak and once he finds out it's not he will sign. The Niners won't miss him but Crabs will miss the money. You can't miss what you don't have applies to the Niners but not Crabs. If someone honestly thinks he will be better off sitting out then I have an everlasting gobstopper to sell you. I doubt Crabs is that stupid.

If Crabtree lights it up elsewhere the fans will miss him unless we can manage to get another playmaking WR. The fan will look back at the mistake we made by not attempting to pay him more money when we had the chance. Crabtree will come out the bigger winner IMHO in the situation if things turn out that way.

That is a if the Niners are will to take on him. Crabs will get the money but it's not written in stone that Crabs won't be a flop. That's the difference. His side of the bargain is written in paper. Preferably Benjamins. Crabs success in the league is unproven and the QB issue is bulls**t. If Bruce can get over 800 yards in his late 30's then Crabs will still get his numbers.
The problem with the Niners' management is that THEY also put themselves in this position. It is not simply one-sided. If honoring the slot was of the highest importance to them, which seems to be implied in their statements to MM< they could have offered one dollar less than DHB money in guaranteed and total money, before Monroe and Raji signed.

If this contract I listed above was offered, then cheers to the Niners for this bold move. I just tend to believe that the Niners never intended to make this bold contract offer.

Once Monroe and Raji signed, then the door closed for them to offer anything outside the slot and save face.

So, the question is: What did the Niners initially offer before Raji and Monroe signed, what did Parker want, and was there an opportunity to solve this long ago?

I tend to believe this would have been resolved if the Niners did take the bold step to make that contract offer.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Sep 10, 2009 at 14:59:28 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

As for my arguments, I have written extensively in this thread and in another thread. In some posts, they were as long as a typical newspaper article. It would take another hour or so to retype the enter argument, but please feel free to dig back a couple hundred pages if you wish.

As for the value that Crabtree could be traded for, nobody knows at this point. It may be that a team is willing to offer a mid-late first rounder, or something outside the first round. Each team will need to assess their needs after the season.

Regarding his special situation that you have referred to multiple times, do you agree with Deion that Crab's should be paid in the $30mil range...or do you agree that, that is crazy?

I think if the Niners offered something very close to DHB money, that Crabtree would sign. However, since I am not there at the table, there is no way for me to know.

Is he worth $30 million? In total money, yes. That would come out to $6 million/season. That is not much more than Raji, who picked up $28. 5 million. To me, I think the solution is to offer a six year deal, worth $42 million, and $18 million in guaranteed money. The guaranteed money would match Raji's, and his overall contract would surpass DHB's in total money (although the per-year average would be less).

Send an email to Scott and get it done! :)
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Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:
Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by jame-gumb:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.

He will lose way more than he would gain holding out. He was drafted at the 10th slot so it is what it is. He will sign. Parker thinks our fronto office is weak and once he finds out it's not he will sign. The Niners won't miss him but Crabs will miss the money. You can't miss what you don't have applies to the Niners but not Crabs. If someone honestly thinks he will be better off sitting out then I have an everlasting gobstopper to sell you. I doubt Crabs is that stupid.

If Crabtree lights it up elsewhere the fans will miss him unless we can manage to get another playmaking WR. The fan will look back at the mistake we made by not attempting to pay him more money when we had the chance. Crabtree will come out the bigger winner IMHO in the situation if things turn out that way.

That is a if the Niners are will to take on him. Crabs will get the money but it's not written in stone that Crabs won't be a flop. That's the difference. His side of the bargain is written in paper. Preferably Benjamins. Crabs success in the league is unproven and the QB issue is bulls**t. If Bruce can get over 800 yards in his late 30's then Crabs will still get his numbers.

Scott certainly believed that Crabtree was a home run, he went on record saying so. While it is true that he is no sure thing, we would still be trading away a so-called "home run" player that was highly coveted by our GM to another team for less than what it cost to get him all because we were not willing to pay outside the slot ?

Risk vs Reward. If Scott and the FO don't take the risk they stand to lose a huge reward.

[ Edited by KRS-1 on Sep 10, 2009 at 15:07:06 ]