When does Scotty M get the boot?

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

In addition to Dean, who seem to have added, I would put on Freddy Solomon and Dwight Clark, Randy Cross, Jack Reynolds. Dwight Hicks was a bit of a flash in the pan, but he had an All-Pro caliber year that year. (It was all the cocaine). Dwayne Board was very good, though kind of unsung. And don't forget Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki.... Keena Turner was also on that squad, though I can't recall his contribution that year.

Also, Montana, Lott and Dean are in the Hall of Fame, not merely Pro Bowl caliber, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

I don't think Walsh meant it is impossible to win a Super Bowl any other way. IMO, a Super Bowl Caliber team is a team that is a serious contender for several seasons in a row.

And yes, I think a multi Pro Bowl player is a good "guideline" for identifying an exceptional player

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

Right...McClueless has been in charge of scouting since the day he was hired and now he because Nolan's gone he is gone to turn into the uber GM?

Ummmm The problem prior to now was that Nolan had ABSOLUTE say. So does it REALLY matter who scouted 3 years ago? Or that McCloughan was part of the decision making process at all? Do you seriously expect me to believe that if your boss gets fired and you are promoted that you deserve to take the credit for the good as well as the bad that happened under him? If so that's no job that I want to be part of.

I don't think ANYONE has a problem with your questioning of McCloughan. The problem is that you've given him all the credit for these drafts(not all of them bad by the way) and personnel decisions. Although you are right that he scouted them you have to admit that he's over .500 as a scout. So that said maybe instead of trying to wiggle your way out of a bad situation by casting doubt you should just OWN your mistake.

Maybe?

An I don't know where that Goodfellas .gif came from but I want one.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by Mex49:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

when Walsh said " six exceptional players" i missed that the part about them having to be drafted. Oh, he didn't. He was talking about the roster, not the way in which the players were acquired. As you know, Bill could spot a FA or two.

And when he said exceptional, I dont think he meant 6 HOF.

IMO

Gore, Bruce, Davis, Heitman, Staley, Clements, Willis, Spikes, Smith, Lawson and Robinson are exceptional; but it doesn't mean they are HOF bound and it doesn't mean a team can rally around them to be productive and winners.
but we shall see

No way those guys would meet the criteria as "exceptional" to Walsh. nor should they.

So pick any SB winning team of Walsh's and show me the six "exceptional" players. How many are HOF and how many had a stand out/pro bowl year.

If this team wins (i predict 10-6), I bet we have a minimum of 6 players going to the pro- bowl this year. Is that exceptional? I would think so

please Andy Lee to the list of exceptional.

[ Edited by Mex49 on Aug 31, 2009 at 14:32:05 ]

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

In addition to Dean, who seem to have added, I would put on Freddy Solomon and Dwight Clark, Randy Cross, Jack Reynolds. Dwight Hicks was a bit of a flash in the pan, but he had an All-Pro caliber year that year. (It was all the cocaine). Dwayne Board was very good, though kind of unsung. And don't forget Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki.... Keena Turner was also on that squad, though I can't recall his contribution that year.

Also, Montana, Lott and Dean are in the Hall of Fame, not merely Pro Bowl caliber, for what it's worth.

Let's look at that list. Solomon maybe, Clark possession receiver. Reynolds was at the end of his career. Dwayne Board was a castoff from the Pittsburg Steelers as was Hicks. Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki come on. Bunz made more of an impact than Puki.

Other than Montana on offense, the real hero could have been Ray Wershing.
The offensive line boasted Fahnhorst, Ayers, Quillan, Cross (a young Cross mind you) and Dan Audick at ROT (undersized to say the least).

The point I am making is that other than Montana, Dean and Lott, most of these other guys were bit players. The RBs were Cooper and Lenvil Elliot. Not exactly household names. Okay you might put Hacksaw Reynolds on that list.

Look at '84, it the same thing. A young Craig maybe and an old Russ Francis.

I think Scott is doing an ok job at evaluating talent. e.g. Gore, Willis, Staley, Coffee, and others.

Picks like Vernon and Manny, although they haven't panned out yet, have potential.

Originally posted by SANDMAN:
I think Scott is doing an ok job at evaluating talent. e.g. Gore, Willis, Staley, Coffee, and others.

Picks like Vernon and Manny, although they haven't panned out yet, have potential.

Originally posted by Mex49:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by Mex49:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

when Walsh said " six exceptional players" i missed that the part about them having to be drafted. Oh, he didn't. He was talking about the roster, not the way in which the players were acquired. As you know, Bill could spot a FA or two.

And when he said exceptional, I dont think he meant 6 HOF.

IMO

Gore, Bruce, Davis, Heitman, Staley, Clements, Willis, Spikes, Smith, Lawson and Robinson are exceptional; but it doesn't mean they are HOF bound and it doesn't mean a team can rally around them to be productive and winners.
but we shall see

No way those guys would meet the criteria as "exceptional" to Walsh. nor should they.

So pick any SB winning team of Walsh's and show me the six "exceptional" players. How many are HOF and how many had a stand out/pro bowl year.

If this team wins (i predict 10-6), I bet we have a minimum of 6 players going to the pro- bowl this year. Is that exceptional? I would think so

please Andy Lee to the list of exceptional.

Wow. This debate is going nowhere.....FAST.

All I am saying is this, I AGREE that you need at least 6 standout players to make a run at it.

So far I can only think of Willis and Gore who meet this condition. Now, the fact that we are in a playoff drought seems to only support the theory does it not??? So I blame the GM, what a concept huh?

I think where we differ is that you are apologetic and or hopeful and state that we COULD have 4 more standouts on this roster who will prove that this season. Well yes, what you are stating does not discredit the theory does it?

But that is a very non critical way of talking about your team. Hell in theory the Lions could have 8 first time Pro Bowlers on their team right now. That is the exact reason a GM is needed, someone needs to make the call on a player when they need to be replaced and when you keep hope alive

I haven't looked up the list of players that scott has drafted to compare to the list that other gms have drafted, but it seems to me that it's about even on who pans out and who doesn't. I wouldn't consider vernon davis a bust just because he hasn't been our antonion gates. Our wide reciever selections have been awful, but really...charles rogers? reggie williams? matt jones? we are not the only people to draft guys that dont pan out. I think 2nd day guys have been outstanding and we continue to find our gems in those picks. Honestly, I think it better to trade out of the 1st round and have all your picks in the 2nd, 3rd, and so on. It sure seems that there are enough people who have been 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounders that wind up in the hall of fame and will great career stats to show everyone that its impossible to predict the will of the human heart, and factor in all variables that come into play during one persons career. Let him stay, he's done a good job.

The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
according to ninertalk

4. Nate Davis
5. Kory Sheets
6. Keith Lewis i know he is not on the team but they way he is talked about on here you would think he is ronnie lott

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD

1. Must be a QB (agreed?)
2. Gore
3. WR (without that game changing WR 1 & 2 don't matter) who steps up?
4. Bam Bam fo sho. (any questions?)
5. TBD
6. Andy Lee (for the moment) hopefully it will be a KR in the future like a Desmond Howard type.

That's about what it's SUPPOSED to look like but doesn't YET.

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
according to ninertalk

4. Nate Davis
5. Kory Sheets
6. Keith Lewis i know he is not on the team but they way he is talked about on here you would think he is ronnie lott

Oh come on now let's be real here. We don't YET know that Davis, Sheets and Lewis will amount to anything. In Lewis's case I think playig Base D helps him soon as it gets intricate he's AVERAGE( that's right I said it. and I don't see him coming back to this team not that you think that he will.

In any case neither Davis or Sheets have much time under their belts. I HOPE that they will become 2 of those 6 spots but hope and $5 bucks will get you a Grande Latte at Starbucks and that's it.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Aug 31, 2009 at 15:08:36 ]

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

In addition to Dean, who seem to have added, I would put on Freddy Solomon and Dwight Clark, Randy Cross, Jack Reynolds. Dwight Hicks was a bit of a flash in the pan, but he had an All-Pro caliber year that year. (It was all the cocaine). Dwayne Board was very good, though kind of unsung. And don't forget Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki.... Keena Turner was also on that squad, though I can't recall his contribution that year.

Also, Montana, Lott and Dean are in the Hall of Fame, not merely Pro Bowl caliber, for what it's worth.

Let's look at that list. Solomon maybe, Clark possession receiver. Reynolds was at the end of his career. Dwayne Board was a castoff from the Pittsburg Steelers as was Hicks. Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki come on. Bunz made more of an impact than Puki.

Other than Montana on offense, the real hero could have been Ray Wershing.
The offensive line boasted Fahnhorst, Ayers, Quillan, Cross (a young Cross mind you) and Dan Audick at ROT (undersized to say the least).

The point I am making is that other than Montana, Dean and Lott, most of these other guys were bit players. The RBs were Cooper and Lenvil Elliot. Not exactly household names. Okay you might put Hacksaw Reynolds on that list.

Look at '84, it the same thing. A young Craig maybe and an old Russ Francis.

First off,

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD

personally I don't think Punters count in this type of conversation.

Also the trick is....you have to get the others before losing what you have, it can't be potential either, they have to be established already.

So I think it is.

1. Gore
2. Willis
3. TBD
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD


And personally i think we have no shot in hell filling that list before Gore is past his prime.

Please can we have this discussion maybe after the season. We still have one more pre-season game to to go. LOL