When does Scotty M get the boot?

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Where were you during the Nolan era? After is first season people were ready to pull the plug.

If we weren't the 9ers and had five Lombardis in the trophy case would ANYONE be saying this stuff?

I sincerely doubt it.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Aug 31, 2009 at 13:07:09 ]

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

Never saw that one before...and concur...

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

I thought about the boot to Scotty after he failed to draft a Pass Rusher yet once again.

Championship teams have:

Legit Q.B.

Legit Pass Rusher

Do we have either?

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

Right...McClueless has been in charge of scouting since the day he was hired and now he because Nolan's gone he is gone to turn into the uber GM?

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

when Walsh said " six exceptional players" i missed that the part about them having to be drafted. Oh, he didn't. He was talking about the roster, not the way in which the players were acquired. As you know, Bill could spot a FA or two.

And when he said exceptional, I dont think he meant 6 HOF.

IMO

Gore, Bruce, Davis, Heitman, Staley, Clements, Willis, Spikes, Smith, Lawson and Robinson are exceptional; but it doesn't mean they are HOF bound and it doesn't mean a team can rally around them to be productive and winners.
but we shall see

Originally posted by Mex49:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

when Walsh said " six exceptional players" i missed that the part about them having to be drafted. Oh, he didn't. He was talking about the roster, not the way in which the players were acquired. As you know, Bill could spot a FA or two.

And when he said exceptional, I dont think he meant 6 HOF.

IMO

Gore, Bruce, Davis, Heitman, Staley, Clements, Willis, Spikes, Smith, Lawson and Robinson are exceptional; but it doesn't mean they are HOF bound and it doesn't mean a team can rally around them to be productive and winners.
but we shall see

No way those guys would meet the criteria as "exceptional" to Walsh. nor should they.

Given the way the game has evolved these are probably the most important positions on a football team (in no particular order):

QB
LT
WR
DE (LB in a 3-4)
CB
RB

That will give you a basic idea of where the 49ers are at.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

Yes, as a rookie from Tennessee CHATTANOOGA, breaking into the lineup and sharing the ball with Jerry Rice, J.J. Stokes, Terry Kirby, William Floyd and Brent Jones, yes, getting 35 catches for 500 yards in his rookie year was an eye opener for a team that was 12-4 and went into the second round of the playoffs. And the stats don't reflect the whole story, that the guy was a raw, physical beast who would fight for a ball.

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

Great Post. And Walsh's standards are still true today. We need 6 standouts. We have 2.

Would either of youi be so kind as to list the 6 standouts that were on the team for the 1981 Superbowl run. I can think of one on offense, and a couple on defense.

Here let me start. Offense, Joe Montana. Defense, Ronnie Lott. Please add the other four, because short of Fred Dean I can't think of any. When you say standouts I am thinking of guys who repeatedley were pro-bowlers.

In addition to Dean, who seem to have added, I would put on Freddy Solomon and Dwight Clark, Randy Cross, Jack Reynolds. Dwight Hicks was a bit of a flash in the pan, but he had an All-Pro caliber year that year. (It was all the cocaine). Dwayne Board was very good, though kind of unsung. And don't forget Lynn Thomas and Craig Puki.... Keena Turner was also on that squad, though I can't recall his contribution that year.