When does Scotty M get the boot?

I honestly feel that a lot of what seems to be first round whiffs has to do with Nolan and how he allowed these players to be used.

1. Alex Smith: I'm not saying he could've been the real deal or that he's a bust. I'm just saying, Nolan didn't really put him in a position to succeed when he was here. Norv protected him, which made him look better than he was at the time. Nolan allowed him to be misused.

2. Vernon Davis: Have never seen a rookie talent so misused in my life. So what, the guy couldn't read zones in the defense. Norv was able to put him in plays that didn't require him to do this which were misdirection plays with Vernon coming across the field and not worry about where the defense was because the defense was being fooled. Again, Nolan ALLOWED his talents to not be used. Look at what teams do with rookie recievers who are very good after the catch such as Royal and Jackson: those coaches put them in a bunch of screen passes or hitch passes.

3. Manny Lawson: This guy turned out to be a stud against the pass and run but we only used him mainly on 3rd downs in "The Big Nickel". For a guy who's tall, skinny, and fast, he sure is damn stout against the run. Use his strengths and if you are going to use him to rush, try to set him up so that he's up against a FB and NOT a Tackle all the time!! Thanks, Nolan!!

There's so much more and a lot of it isn't McCloughan's fault. These guys are uber talented and other head coaches use the talents to the best of their abilities, especially first rounders. What did Nolan do? He would try to force them into his system completley disregarding what they have to offer.

Originally posted by Joecool:
I honestly feel that a lot of what seems to be first round whiffs has to do with Nolan and how he allowed these players to be used.

1. Alex Smith: I'm not saying he could've been the real deal or that he's a bust. I'm just saying, Nolan didn't really put him in a position to succeed when he was here. Norv protected him, which made him look better than he was at the time. Nolan allowed him to be misused.

2. Vernon Davis: Have never seen a rookie talent so misused in my life. So what, the guy couldn't read zones in the defense. Norv was able to put him in plays that didn't require him to do this which were misdirection plays with Vernon coming across the field and not worry about where the defense was because the defense was being fooled. Again, Nolan ALLOWED his talents to not be used. Look at what teams do with rookie recievers who are very good after the catch such as Royal and Jackson: those coaches put them in a bunch of screen passes or hitch passes.

3. Manny Lawson: This guy turned out to be a stud against the pass and run but we only used him mainly on 3rd downs in "The Big Nickel". For a guy who's tall, skinny, and fast, he sure is damn stout against the run. Use his strengths and if you are going to use him to rush, try to set him up so that he's up against a FB and NOT a Tackle all the time!! Thanks, Nolan!!

There's so much more and a lot of it isn't McCloughan's fault. These guys are uber talented and other head coaches use the talents to the best of their abilities, especially first rounders. What did Nolan do? He would try to force them into his system completley disregarding what they have to offer.

all those are reasons why he was not fired yet. Now he is next on the chopping block. Excuses don't mean much in the NFL.

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

Yes, as a rookie from Tennessee CHATTANOOGA, breaking into the lineup and sharing the ball with Jerry Rice, J.J. Stokes, Terry Kirby, William Floyd and Brent Jones, yes, getting 35 catches for 500 yards in his rookie year was an eye opener for a team that was 12-4 and went into the second round of the playoffs. And the stats don't reflect the whole story, that the guy was a raw, physical beast who would fight for a ball.

I am well aware of TO's ability. YOU used the term "stud out of the gate". I flagged it because he wasn't. End.

Hmmm...I think you just want the last word at this point. You are dismissive of the immediate contribution and demonstrated potential of TO in his rookie season. Were you watching back in '96? Because most of the people I was watching with knew right away that we had a steal with TO. You try to diminish his impact, I guess, by showing that his rookie stats weren't as good as his counterpart, Jerry Rice, the best receiver to ever step on the field, and sidestep the issue that the ball was being shared with Rice, Kirby, Jones and Stokes. So I stand by my point. If you break into the lineup of the top passing offense in the league as a rookie from a small school, playing amongst hall of famers, and making a very solid contribution, that is a studly performance. And going back to original premise, please point out to me how the rookie performances of Alex Smith, Vernon Davis, Manny Lawson and Kentwan Balmer compare to TO.

I take exception to having words put in my mouth. I pointed out that he had not been a stud coming out of the gate. And I do not consider 520 yards to be stud-like performance. You may put retrospective gloss on it however you wish. I don't care.

How you got from this to me diminishing his performance I do not know. I was correcting your wild exaggeration. And any comparison with Rice was entirely down to you.

And your comments about the other players have been addressed by other posters.

For your information, by the way, I was running one of the booster clubs in 96. So yes, I was watching. If I could be bothered I would exhume an article I wrote at the time praising Owens and Daryl Price. One made it, one didn't. Nobody "knew" we had a steal with Owens, although we had hopes.

And regarding me insisting on the last word, had you not insisted in putting words into my mouth, I wouldn't even have bothered with this one.

I think he will get the boot this offseason when they bring in The Walrus.

Originally posted by captnkos:
I think he will get the boot this offseason when they bring in The Walrus.

what about the eggman?

Originally posted by captnkos:
I think he will get the boot this offseason when they bring in The Walrus.

I don't think so. I think Holmgren is headed back to Seattle if he EVEN decides he wants to have anything to do with pro football.

As for the other three prime possibilities:

1) Shanahan - what did he do after Elway was gone? Look at his record.

2) Gruden - and how many QBs do you want on the roster?

3) Cowher - I only mention him here because he is in the same "heights"
as those already mentioned. He's not leaving the East Coast.

We are no longer the MECCA that talented people want to come to. We can't
even get a stadium built. Even Detroit got a new stadium. Arizona which has
been the "s**t franchise for years has a beautiful new stadium. We have an
aging turd that "they just slap some lipstick on" but it's still a turd.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

Yes, as a rookie from Tennessee CHATTANOOGA, breaking into the lineup and sharing the ball with Jerry Rice, J.J. Stokes, Terry Kirby, William Floyd and Brent Jones, yes, getting 35 catches for 500 yards in his rookie year was an eye opener for a team that was 12-4 and went into the second round of the playoffs. And the stats don't reflect the whole story, that the guy was a raw, physical beast who would fight for a ball.

I am well aware of TO's ability. YOU used the term "stud out of the gate". I flagged it because he wasn't. End.

Hmmm...I think you just want the last word at this point. You are dismissive of the immediate contribution and demonstrated potential of TO in his rookie season. Were you watching back in '96? Because most of the people I was watching with knew right away that we had a steal with TO. You try to diminish his impact, I guess, by showing that his rookie stats weren't as good as his counterpart, Jerry Rice, the best receiver to ever step on the field, and sidestep the issue that the ball was being shared with Rice, Kirby, Jones and Stokes. So I stand by my point. If you break into the lineup of the top passing offense in the league as a rookie from a small school, playing amongst hall of famers, and making a very solid contribution, that is a studly performance. And going back to original premise, please point out to me how the rookie performances of Alex Smith, Vernon Davis, Manny Lawson and Kentwan Balmer compare to TO.

I take exception to having words put in my mouth. I pointed out that he had not been a stud coming out of the gate. And I do not consider 520 yards to be stud-like performance. You may put retrospective gloss on it however you wish. I don't care.

How you got from this to me diminishing his performance I do not know. I was correcting your wild exaggeration. And any comparison with Rice was entirely down to you.

And your comments about the other players have been addressed by other posters.

For your information, by the way, I was running one of the booster clubs in 96. So yes, I was watching. If I could be bothered I would exhume an article I wrote at the time praising Owens and Daryl Price. One made it, one didn't. Nobody "knew" we had a steal with Owens, although we had hopes.

And regarding me insisting on the last word, had you not insisted in putting words into my mouth, I wouldn't even have bothered with this one.

And I take exception to smarmy sarcasm, particularly from one who isn't willing to address substance. This thread raised the issue of McCloughan's job security. You said, ridiculous, support the case before beginning some inane countdown (fair enough). I responded, substantively, with a list of McCloughan's unproductive first round picks, a sentiment which was echoed today by Super Bowl winning coach Jon Gruden. You say, wait, give our guys time. I say, from my experience watching the team over thirty years, the impact players usually make themselves known clearly and early, citing examples, including TO. You jump all over the TO example, talking down his impressive leap from University of Tennesse at Chatanooga to being a key contributor in NFL's top offense his rookie year. Not studlike numbers, you say. He looked promising, but so did Daryl Price (DE, 2 tackles in 2 years). Please.

Originally posted by GoNiners:

Originally posted by captnkos:
I think he will get the boot this offseason when they bring in The Walrus.

what about the eggman?

coocoocachoo

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

Read the parts I've highlighted in bold and then tell me I have a "straw man" argument.

Here are some other points I'd like to make:

1. The players you originally listed haven't played 3 full seasons of football yet. Your argument is that great players make an immediate impact... but that is not always the case.

2. Most of us were happy with ALL of the picks listed above except maybe Alex Smith & Kentwan Balmer.

Just looking at the past 5 years drafts. 1 excellent first round pick (Willis). One solid, but expensive pick (Staley, cost us the #7 overall). 5 questionable ones.

The rest of his drafts? 2 good backs. 2 good guards. 1 mediocre pass rusher. And that's it. The rest of the team are holdovers and free agent acqusitions. Doesn't seem like a lot of production for a half decade of drafts.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows if he's been extended out 5 years or something ridiculous like that.

Thanks.

[ Edited by Robert on Sep 1, 2009 at 14:29:22 ]

I've called for Scot to be dumped for some time now. All that cap space, and high draft choices, and this team still is devoid of talent. Some of the blame surely falls on Nolan, but Scot has been part of the decision-making team all along.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I've called for Scot to be dumped for some time now. All that cap space, and high draft choices, and this team still is devoid of talent. Some of the blame surely falls on Nolan, but Scot has been part of the decision-making team all along.

He should have been dumped with Nolan.

You're entitled to your viewpoint, but who replaces him? I want names. You're probably looking at a 1st time GM, and which worthwhile candidate is going to come here when the guy they're replacing is fired basically 2 years after being named GM? There's also already a thread on this topic.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I've called for Scot to be dumped for some time now. All that cap space, and high draft choices, and this team still is devoid of talent. Some of the blame surely falls on Nolan, but Scot has been part of the decision-making team all along.

Some blame, yes. But Nolan's dumbness was on full display last year when Singletary quickly inserted Chilo Rachal, a rookie who is still learning, into the mix. This was something Nolan was hell bent on doing or afraid to do: letting rookies learn and develop on the job. The only way he let rookies play is if it was obvious and even a highschool coach can make those decisions.

There's no better development than gametime development.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I've called for Scot to be dumped for some time now. All that cap space, and high draft choices, and this team still is devoid of talent. Some of the blame surely falls on Nolan, but Scot has been part of the decision-making team all along.

I have to agree. I want to like the guy. You know, Ron Wolf disciple and all, but the numbers just don't pan out. We still have sub-par NFL talent 5 years into his regime.