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Eric Heitmann is a Good Football Player

Originally posted by 49erWill:
Originally posted by angelv05:
Originally posted by solidg2000:
Here's one more myth
MadDog49er is a good NFL evaluator


he's a good sometimes great college evaluator
but he doesn't translate to the pro's

[ Edited by solidg2000 on Nov 25, 2008 at 23:07:52 ]
Originally posted by ads_2006:
Nice post maddog.

lol at you saying that ratliff is good cause (in addition to other reasons) he was put on the horse trailer.

I getting put on the horse trailer just means you had a good game.

Ratliff was considered one of the better NTs in the game before getting horse trailered.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by ads_2006:
Nice post maddog.

lol at you saying that ratliff is good cause (in addition to other reasons) he was put on the horse trailer.

I getting put on the horse trailer just means you had a good game.

Ratliff was considered one of the better NTs in the game before getting horse trailered.

Come on ads, Ratliff is a very good player. I thought Heitmann did well in that game.

The way we are running is horrible though, why is Gore 3 yards behind the qb instead of the usual 5-7 yards back? I don't think he can read the hole quick enough when he has to find it within such a short time frame. Gameplanning has been absolutely horrible.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I don't want stats to get in the way of anyone's theory, but according to footballoutsiders.com, the Niners rank third in the NFC in running the ball up the middle. And up the middle is.....that horrible Eric Heitmann.

"49ers are significantly better on the other side of the field. They're third in the league at runs to left end, and also third in the league at runs up the middle. 59% of their runs are up the middle (against a league average of 50%), so expect Jay Ratliff to have a big day. It's going to be essential for Bradie James and Zach Thomas to plug the gaps alongside Ratliff, and for Ware and Burnett to eliminate the angles for Frank Gore to cut back and bounce plays outside."

Looks like they had the defensive playbook in advance, except for Ratliff having a big day.

The Niners Third in the League in Running Up the Middle

Link Showing Niners OL Stats: Heitmann Leading the Number 3 Running NFC Team in the Middle

MadDawg, MadDawg, MadDawg the team has 59% of thier runs up the middel, that is not saying those runs are going fur nice gains, it just says that they run up the middle more often than most teams, so yeah they are going to be in the top categorythaty leads with running from that spot. If you will notice, they have been marginally sucessful from that spot, and very bad when they need a first down, score, or to get them out of trouble from being pinned against their own goal line running from that spot That stat is very misleading if you do not understand it. Lets DVR the next game, with a lesser D-Line that the Bills have. But if you will look at the better teams in the NFL that we plyed with Heitman at the center, we are not good from the performances we have needed when it all counts. There is no way when the guy at center can not get you that short yardage play for the first down, nor TD goal line stance from that spot, nor an effective run from that spot while being backed up at our own goal line can you say he is a good player. A good player is a reliable player when it all counts.
Originally posted by moopoo:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I don't want stats to get in the way of anyone's theory, but according to footballoutsiders.com, the Niners rank third in the NFC in running the ball up the middle. And up the middle is.....that horrible Eric Heitmann.

"49ers are significantly better on the other side of the field. They're third in the league at runs to left end, and also third in the league at runs up the middle. 59% of their runs are up the middle (against a league average of 50%), so expect Jay Ratliff to have a big day. It's going to be essential for Bradie James and Zach Thomas to plug the gaps alongside Ratliff, and for Ware and Burnett to eliminate the angles for Frank Gore to cut back and bounce plays outside."

Looks like they had the defensive playbook in advance, except for Ratliff having a big day.

The Niners Third in the League in Running Up the Middle

Link Showing Niners OL Stats: Heitmann Leading the Number 3 Running NFC Team in the Middle

MadDawg, MadDawg, MadDawg the team has 59% of thier runs up the middel, that is not saying those runs are going fur nice gains, it just says that they run up the middle more often than most teams, so yeah they are going to be in the top categorythaty leads with running from that spot. If you will notice, they have been marginally sucessful from that spot, and very bad when they need a first down, score, or to get them out of trouble from being pinned against their own goal line running from that spot That stat is very misleading if you do not understand it. Lets DVR the next game, with a lesser D-Line that the Bills have. But if you will look at the better teams in the NFL that we plyed with Heitman at the center, we are not good from the performances we have needed when it all counts. There is no way when the guy at center can not get you that short yardage play for the first down, nor TD goal line stance from that spot, nor an effective run from that spot while being backed up at our own goal line can you say he is a good player. A good player is a reliable player when it all counts.

I totally agree... Heitman is terrible in short yardage. And the good teams can run the ball in the Red Zone.. The 49ers cannot!
I think it's funny how, in regards to people legitimately wanting to see more Baas and Rachal (over Wragge of all people and moving Snyder to RT at the expense of Barry Simms!), MadDog will say...

"Before we cast his [Baas or Rachal] bust for Canton..."

Then in the next breath states Heitmann is one of the best centers in the NFC and defends him more vehemently than Heitmann's own mother probably does—almost to the point of implication that he believes Heitmann is all-pro/all-universe or something.

I say to MadDog now in regards to Eric Heitmann...

"Before we cast his bust for Canton..."



I don't get it. Heitmann neither sucks ass nor is he one of the best centers in the NFC. Sometimes he makes good plays and sometimes he makes bad ones. I don't know why that is so difficult to accept?

[ Edited by ghostrider on Nov 26, 2008 at 08:31:09 ]
Originally posted by moopoo:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I don't want stats to get in the way of anyone's theory, but according to footballoutsiders.com, the Niners rank third in the NFC in running the ball up the middle. And up the middle is.....that horrible Eric Heitmann.

"49ers are significantly better on the other side of the field. They're third in the league at runs to left end, and also third in the league at runs up the middle. 59% of their runs are up the middle (against a league average of 50%), so expect Jay Ratliff to have a big day. It's going to be essential for Bradie James and Zach Thomas to plug the gaps alongside Ratliff, and for Ware and Burnett to eliminate the angles for Frank Gore to cut back and bounce plays outside."

Looks like they had the defensive playbook in advance, except for Ratliff having a big day.

The Niners Third in the League in Running Up the Middle

Link Showing Niners OL Stats: Heitmann Leading the Number 3 Running NFC Team in the Middle

MadDawg, MadDawg, MadDawg the team has 59% of thier runs up the middel, that is not saying those runs are going fur nice gains, it just says that they run up the middle more often than most teams, so yeah they are going to be in the top categorythaty leads with running from that spot. If you will notice, they have been marginally sucessful from that spot, and very bad when they need a first down, score, or to get them out of trouble from being pinned against their own goal line running from that spot That stat is very misleading if you do not understand it. Lets DVR the next game, with a lesser D-Line that the Bills have. But if you will look at the better teams in the NFL that we plyed with Heitman at the center, we are not good from the performances we have needed when it all counts. There is no way when the guy at center can not get you that short yardage play for the first down, nor TD goal line stance from that spot, nor an effective run from that spot while being backed up at our own goal line can you say he is a good player. A good player is a reliable player when it all counts.



That's what I was about to say after reading that, no where does it say that we are great running up the middle, all it says that we run up the middle a lot...Still not convincing me that Heitmann is great or even good

Ill say it again, Heitmann would be a fantastic guard, or even a good center in a blocking zone scheme, as long as we run this power blocking scheme, he will not be very good, he might have a good game here and there, but nothing more, he's had more bad games this season that good, and I have watched every game and I see how much pressure they are getting in our A gap, it is rediculous some of the games and I blame 2 of our losses on that.

I've barely seen any 3rd and shorts get converted with runs, we all know how great our goaline offense has been this year...no...I'm sorry MadDog, but this time no

[ Edited by TheG0RE49er on Nov 26, 2008 at 08:18:13 ]
Originally posted by ghostrider:
I think it's funny how, in regards to people legitimately wanting to see more Baas and Rachal (over Wragge of all people and moving Snyder to RT at the expense of Barry Simms!), MadDog will say...

"Before we cast his [Baas or Rachal] bust for Canton..."

Then in the next breath states Heitmann is one of the best centers in the NFC and defends him more vehemently than Heitmann's own mother probably does—almost to the point of implication that he believes Heitmann is all-pro/all-universe or something.

I say to MadDog now in regards to Eric Heitmann...

"Before we cast his bust for Canton..."



I don't get it. Heitmann neither sucks ass nor is he one of the best centers in the NFC. Sometimes he makes good plays and sometimes he makes bad ones. I don't know why that is so difficult to accept?

I'm the one that probably prompted MadDog yesterday to post the E.Heitmann thread. He jumped all over me when I said Heitmann got pushed around. Like Ghostrider said sometime he does and sometimes he plays good. I'm no way singling him out. GOOD OFFENSIVE LINES PLAY WELL AS A COHESIVE UNIT. But I feel that he is not a physical enough center. Yes he can be a good technician and line caller but not enough push is coming from him or any one in the interior line. He is maybe average and I just commented on giving Cody Wallace a shot.
Heittman is solid as he doesn't make very many bad plays. Having said that, he can't make any great plays either and gets help more than our Tackles do.
Heitmann is better than either Baas or Rachal, and yet I have not seen criticism of either of the two guards in this game, or virtually any game.

These two are the golden children, who can do no wrong. Give up 5 sacks in a game? It doesn't matter, let's talk about the two times Heitmann did not lift his opponent through the goal post.

This is the silly "board favoritism" that makes our board a joke. There are probably about 5 objective analysts who write on this board, and the rest are so biased that they find other players who outplay their "superstar" on a weekly basis, and beat the drum for the center's removal day and night. This is plain and simple foolishness.

Where are all the "Baas should be replaced with Wallace" threads? Where are the, and heaven forbid if this ever happened, "Rachel should be benched for an unproven 4th round draft choice that has never been activated for one NFL game".

The inequity, and partisan viewpoints, are completely out of control. And I will whack them day and night until it ends.

Just this week, Barrows, in his blog, said that Heitmann is having one of the finest seasons of his career. I tend to believe him, since he actually talks to coaches, scouts, etc. I tend to believe the stat showing the Niners run efficiency up the middle as NUMBER 3 in the NFL.

MATCHUP TO WATCH

49ers center Eric Heitmann vs. Cowboys nose tackle Jay Ratliff

49ers offensive coordinator Mike Martz says Ratliff is the best pass rusher from the nose-tackle position he's ever seen. The statistics back up that claim. Ratliff has six sacks on the season – more than any 49er – and leads the Cowboys' defensive linemen in tackles. On the other side of the line is Heitmann, one of the 49ers' three team captains. The center, a native of Katy, Texas, is having one of the best seasons of his career.


Heitmann Having One of the Best Seasons of His Career

I tend to believe that after watching more than 50 snaps on this Sunday, in which Ratliff, one of the best young DT's in the NFL, is dominated for the vast majority of the game, that even though Heitmann did not pancake his opponents at the goal line, which very few centers around the league do, he did a good overall job in the game.

Meanwhile, Singletary declares that Rachal had a bad game. And the board response: Crickets. Baas had a bad game? Crickets. It is solely Heitmann's fault. That is a joke. Admit it. This is a joke, and a bad one. Heitmann allows no sacks. No mention. He still sucks. Joke. Joke. Joke. Hill stinks at the goal line, cannot throw a completion. Crickets. It is all Heitmann's fault. Moronic logic.

If I did a power ranking of my "favorite" 49ers before this season began, Heitmann would not be high on the list. I generally do not get excited about centers. But after hearing all of this mindless drivel for over three months now, I decided to watch his play, and compare it with other centers around the league. Since I go to a sports bar every Sunday, with 6 TV's in front of me, I have the opportunity to watch centers every week. Let me tell you, those who are skeptics. Heitmann is doing just fine.

So, he doesn't lift guys off the ground, and throw them through the goal posts. Who else on our line does? What other center in the league does this? Why is it always Heitmann, who alone is supposed to be the strongman of the group? He is always singlehandedly picked on whenever the Niners' offense struggles, and this is a farce.

I have never said Heitmann is perfect. But he is very good at what he does, and to state it any other way is a joke.

I will ask the skeptics again. Watch the tape. Read what coaches have to say. Look at the stats. Remove your biases.

Wallace? Wragge? Baas at center? What are you guys smoking? That is a flat out joke.

Wow! Look at Baas push the guy down the field. I'll just ignore the fact that he allowed three sacks in the game, because he is a "mauler".

Here is what Maiocco said about Heitmann versus Ratliff pre-game:
C Eric Heitmann vs. NT Jay Ratliff: Heitmann will not be able to handle Ratliff alone, so he'll need to have good communication with guards David Baas and rookie Chilo Rachal. You can bet Ratliff will want to take advantage of Rachal's inexperience to split those double-team blocks. Ratliff has been outstanding this season, racking up six sacks on the season. He had two sacks and three QB pressures last week against the Redskins.

Maiocco's Pre-Game Thoughts on Heitmann versus Ratliff

Note: 3-4 NT's get doubled a lot. So, don't throw down the "if he was a star, he'd always single him" card. That would be silly. The miscommunication between Heitmann and Rachal led to the one and only pressure by Ratliff in the game. Much better performance than the 2 sacks and 3 pressures performance of the week before.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Nov 26, 2008 at 10:28:46 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Heitmann is better than either Baas or Rachal, and yet I have not seen criticism of either of the two guards in this game, or virtually any game.

These two are the golden children, who can do no wrong.

At Center: At least a third of the NFL > Heitmann > Baas > Wragge > Wallace (unknown)

At Guard: Baas > Wragge... And Rachal is unknown BUT Snyder at RT + Rachal at G > Snyder at G and Barry Simms at RT

How are Baas and Rachal the "golden children, who can do no wrong"?

Rachal is a rookie who we'd all like to see what he can do because we're not going to the Super Bowl or the playoffs.

Further, how is Heitmann YOUR "golden child" who can do no wrong? Heitmann is decent but let's cut the craziness.
Originally posted by ghostrider:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Heitmann is better than either Baas or Rachal, and yet I have not seen criticism of either of the two guards in this game, or virtually any game.

These two are the golden children, who can do no wrong.

At Center: At least a third of the NFL > Heitmann > Baas > Wragge > Wallace (unknown)

At Guard: Baas > Wragge... And Rachal is unknown BUT Snyder at RT + Rachal at G > Snyder at G and Barry Simms at RT

How are Baas and Rachal the "golden children, who can do no wrong"?

Rachal is a rookie who we'd all like to see what he can do because we're not going to the Super Bowl or the playoffs.

Further, how is Heitmann YOUR "golden child" who can do no wrong? Heitmann is decent but let's cut the craziness.

Show me the criticism of Rachal and Baas from this game. From this board, none. It is all Heitmann's fault. That is a joke.
Not anymore. He was great before his leg injury but he just isn't the same. Whomever said he is having the best year of his career has no idea how good he was before his injury but he has just never recovered. I'm not saying he is terrible but you can't win in this league with a servicable center.
http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=7209&team=25
http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=8816&team=25
http://sports.cbs5.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=6097&team=25
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by ghostrider:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Heitmann is better than either Baas or Rachal, and yet I have not seen criticism of either of the two guards in this game, or virtually any game.

These two are the golden children, who can do no wrong.

At Center: At least a third of the NFL > Heitmann > Baas > Wragge > Wallace (unknown)

At Guard: Baas > Wragge... And Rachal is unknown BUT Snyder at RT + Rachal at G > Snyder at G and Barry Simms at RT

How are Baas and Rachal the "golden children, who can do no wrong"?

Rachal is a rookie who we'd all like to see what he can do because we're not going to the Super Bowl or the playoffs.

Further, how is Heitmann YOUR "golden child" who can do no wrong? Heitmann is decent but let's cut the craziness.

Show me the criticism of Rachal and Baas from this game. From this board, none. It is all Heitmann's fault. That is a joke.

Rachal is a rookie and Singletary already said he had a bad game. What more is there to say.

Post: "Boy that rookie had a bad 1st start in the NFL and the coach even said so."
Reply: "Yep."
Reply:

No point in stating that obvious.

Baas has been around longer so he's fair game for criticism but if you can't find any criticism of Baas, I suggest you try using the search function. Here's a thread with several criticisms of Baas...

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/thread.php?num=111395&highlight=Baas

And here's a more recent one in which Pasodoc says he'd only make a good backup to which you even replied...

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/thread.php?num=113197&start=45&highlight=Baas

Here's another...

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/thread.php?num=113183&start=30&highlight=Baas



Baas is no superman. Probably half to 3/4 of the NFL guards are better than he is just like probably 1/3 of the NFL centers are better than Heitmann. Rachal is a rookie so he's going to be up and down. Our whole line is nothing to write home about.

To add... Perhaps Heitmann receives more criticism than other members of the line is because his position is more important. It's kind of like how QB's are under more scrutiny than punters. Food for thought.

[ Edited by ghostrider on Nov 26, 2008 at 11:46:16 ]