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Randy Moss Vs Jerry Rice-Let's be real.

Lets put it this way, you are doing an all time fantasy draft and your life depends on the outcome. You are taking Moss over Rice?
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Originally posted by 49ertrue1:
still haven't had 1 person talk about the stats & the fact that Moss is on pace to break the TD record. Take your time & read it all. Even Rice would shy away from reading it i suppose, if it described how Rice's records will fall and how Moss has owned Rice since college.

Ok, I wasn't gonna do it, but...


Originally posted by 49ertrue1:
Randy Moss Vs Jerry Rice-“In between the lines”
Then, the topic of the debate begins. Moss broke state H.S.records in the 100m and 200m dashes(still state records). One of the track coach’s of Olympic team when he scouted Moss said he was the greatest runner he’s ever seen, & that includes Michael Johnson & Carl Lewis. (At Marshall University, Moss won Southern Conf. Championship in the 200m and 55m dash, after just 3 days of practice)!

Oh my, by these standards, Darrius Heyward Bey should be inducted into the Hall of Fame tomorrow.

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Moss got 2 state titles in football. And he was a super great basketball player receiving the W. Virginia player of the year award. He was also drafted in baseball, which many scouts thought was his best sport (centerfield). Some scouts were saying he was the best fielder in centerfield ever, and he was only in H.S.(Imagine Moss running down baseballs out there!) [...] he knows of Moss running a 4.19 in Minnesota. Now that’s almost Bo Jackson speed right there. I believe Bo Jackson, Randy Moss and Deion Sanders are the best 3 athletes ever.)

Once again, nothing to do with being a Pro NFL receiver. Michael Vick was a three-sport star as well. Is he a better player than Joe Montana? Reggie Bush is a better Running Back than Emmitt Smith?


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RANDY MOSS VS JERRY RICE
This receiver debate even goes back to their college football days, for those of you that don’t know. Look it up, Randy Moss broke 25 NCAA records. Yes, 25! Moss broke Rice's college records too. This Moss and Rice debate is nothing new. Nobody ever has ever caught more regular season touchdown passes than any freshman in NCAA history.

Like I've already said, college stats mean squat. If you wanna talk college, then RaShaun Woods should be in the discussion for greatest Wideout ever as well. The QB debate shouldnt be between Montana, Brady and Manning, it should be between Rattay, Brennan and Detmer.


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In college, he even got an award named after him. NCAA D-1 gives the Randy Moss Award every year to the top returner.
Cool little fact. See above as to why it doesnt mean squat. College =/= NFL.

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Nowadays, when a player demands the ball and pouts on the sideline, “he’s a prima-donna or bad sport.” When Rice demanded the ball or showed emotion when he wasn’t involved, they said, “wow, what a competitor!” The 80’s media was way different than the crazy media we have nowadays. Rice started that give me the ball stuff if you remember.

Once again, not really sure what this has to do with how good a player is. But on the point, Moss wasn't deemed a prima donna because he demanded the ball. He's deemed a prima donna because he pretended to moon the fans in Green Bay, and quit on his team in Oakland. Or did you just forget about that?

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Moss can run routes. [...] How can you only run go routes and catch over 100 balls? Or the 98 catches he got in 2008? It’s just crazy talk. You got to understand, he draws so much attention. He does for you on offense, what Deion did for you on defense. His route is part of an entire scheme. Other receivers run just as much go routes.

Jerry Rice does the exact same thing for your team. Since you seem to appreciate Deion so much, he's been quoted thousands of times saying Jerry Rice struck fear into him every game. Every night before each faceoff, Deion would wake up in cold sweats thinking about the matchup. This coming from a guy who, at the age of 37, shut down Terrell Owens.

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Rice was on linebackers a lot. Remember that the west coast offense Rice was on was new and we’ve all seen Rice beat linebackers and ended up 1on1 with a safety a lot.

Oh geez, that must be why Rice gained more than 6000 yards in his last 6 seasons playing 16 games (I'm excluding his last two years, in which he played a combined 17 games). Not to mention his 39 touchdowns. Oh yeah, he did this when he was 36 in 1998, and 41 in 2003.

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He runs some sweet slants & in-routes, & skinny posts. He’s almost undefendable running a stop route, & the out route. His post & set up to post corner is ridiculous to defend. Moss only runs go routes?


In routes, skinny posts... Oh no how hard? You do uderstand that posts and skinny posts are glorified go routes, in which they make one cut at an angle and go upfield, right? Rice, in the West Coast, did not have designated routes. He had read-and-react routes. If a corner did something, Rice would have the choice to cut upfield or take the post, and this was all during before the QB finished his 3 or 7 step drop. Moss doesn't do that.

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I HIGHLY encourage you to watch Moss’s ENTIRE 2009 season highlights on youtube. It paints a great picture of what he can do at age 32, and shows a lot of his route running skills and shows how many different routes he runs. It displays how easy he makes the game look. If you think he’s slowing down after watching that video, you’re crazy. He led the NFL in TD’s last year, & admitted he was hurt most of the season. He still looks ridiculous.

When he's 40 years old and still getting 1200 yards (as Jerry did in 2002), come back and see me.

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-STATS-
These stats may shock some of you stat nerds. Take a deep breath. I will now state a few interesting comparative facts of the two and compare the actual stats with comments.
Ok, Randy Moss just finished his 12th season in the NFL. I will compare Jerry Rice’s first 12 seasons with Randy Moss’s. I will also take half of that and compare their first 6 seasons. First, Moss was 32 years old in his 12th season and Rice was 34 years old when he played in his 12th season. That right there should raise an eyebrow or two. Remember, Moss played as a rookie at age 21 and led the NFL in TD’s with 17 (NFL rookie record). Moss’s 12th season, his 13 TD’s led the NFL in TD’s (tied 2 others, go Vernon!). Rice got 8 TD’s in his 12th season. It is interesting to point out Rice never got more than 9 TD’s again after that 12th season.

Comparing seasons is the incorrect way to handle this. That's like comparing Derrick Rose's 3rd season to Brandon Roy's 3rd season Comparing AGE has more substance. When Rice as 32, as Moss, he gained 1500 yards and 13 touchdowns. Right there in line with Moss's "league leading" touchdown number, and MORE yardage.

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In the first 12 seasons, Rice had 154 TD’s in 192 games, and Moss has 148 TD’s in 186 games. Wow, I know, it’s very similar. Rice got 16,377 yards and Moss got 14,465 yards. Rice has edge here but there is more to meets the eye on that stat, I will explain later. And Rice got 1,050 receptions, and Moss got 926 receptions. I always say, no one will ever break Rice’s catch record, cause it’s ridiculous! But you never know how long Moss will play and for what team. I will also talk about this later as well.

What exactly are you trying to prove with these stats? That Jerry Rice not only gains more yards and touchdowns... but that he's more durable?

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Rice has only 2 seasons of 17+ TD seasons. Moss has chance to reach that again, but we’ll see. The 22 TD’s Rice got was in the strike shortened season. I agree that it was amazing and it is legendary for being 12 games. But I have to stay objective. Rice did it in his second season, a strike year, and never even sniffed that type of season again and he played forever. The year after that season, in 16 games, Rice only got 9 TD’s. Let’s be honest. Yea, Moss got 23 TD’S in more games, but it was just amazing. The highlights are astonishing. One big thing people don’t say about Rice, that I like to point out is, “Rice didn’t get 23 TD’s in a 16 game season!” And we all know he played forever. I find that interesting.

The thing about your post is that you're cutting off facts that favor Randy Moss. "Rice only had 2 seasons of 17 touchdowns." Well, in that case, Jerry Rice had 8 seasons in which he had 13 or more touchdowns. Moss only has 6. Rice had 4 seasons of 1500+ receiving yards, Moss only had 1. Moss has 3 seasons of 90+ catches. Rice had 6. Oh, and he had one when he was 40 years old.

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This is for those people that will only talk about Oakland as their argument to why Moss isn’t the best. Well, I got some ammo for you haters as well. For one, Moss’s first year with Oakland he got 1,000+ yards and 8 TD’s. That is not bad, considering he didn’t play the full season due to injury, and played most of the season with injury. Most people don’t know that in his first 4 games with Oakland, he was off to the greatest start in the history of the game in receiving yards. But he got hurt.

Moss played 16 games in 2005 (his first year in Oakland) and started 15 of them.
He started all save for one, and played in all of them.

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Many people don’t know that. It was believed early on, that he was going to break Rice’s single season yard mark, but coulda-shoulda’s don’t count.(but imagine if Moss had that single season yard record too)

He might've broken it if they extended season by 5 games or so.

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I will say, if Moss was never in Oakland and on a good team, he would already be ahead of Rice’s TD pace and no one would argue that. And Moss would have had more yardage and more receptions, in-turn would have closed the gap even more in those stat categories as well, if not passing them. But again, woulda-coulda.

If Jerry Rice wasn't injured in 1997, he would've been on pace 1000 yard, 8+ touchdown season. Not really sure where you're going with this, but...

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Moss is 49 TD’s away from Rice’s receiving TD record. That’s not that unreasonable to obtain. At the least, if Moss gets 9.8 TD’s a season for 5 years, it makes Moss 37 years old when he gets the record. Remember, Rice only got 8 TD’s in his 12th season, & never got more than 9 after that, and he was 2 years older.

It's possible, but I dont know Moss personally enough to see whether or not his conditioning is on par with Jerry's.

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Moss got 13 TD’s last year and it appears he will get 10+ with Brady next year. If he has a few big seasons, it’s going to be done in 4 years, and he would only be 36 years old!

Moss has stated in interviews that he doesnt feel as though the Patriots are going to renew his contract due to their views on aging players with big contract needs. Just sayin'.
Too long of a post, expecially for a noobie, and I am a blind loyalist so it would be lost on me anyway.
Originally posted by chico49erfan:
my brain exploded after just looking at how long that was

i lol'd
all I know is Jerry did it in 12 games
I'll admit, I didn't read that wall of text. I'm not going to, it is a mess. You want a debate, deliver your points as the argument leads, not a freakin wall of text and keep pointing your finger to it.

Moss could have been the greates WR ever. He could have surpassed Rice. He has had a lot of help. Rule changes alone should have catapulted Moss's stats past Rice. But stats aren't everything, are they?

Rice was probably one of the best blocking WRs as well. Rice didn't have Moss's speed or leaping ability. Rice helped his teammates, Moss doesn't. Simple as that. Individual stats between these two players don't tell that. Look at the accomplishments they have. Rice is better overall by miles compared to Moss.

On the other hand... Moss is damn good with a go route.
A new poster that starts posting anti-jerry rice threads? You guys are suckers for even debating this guy. He is clearly not a 49er fan.
Its like saying Paraage is better than Walsh.
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Great analysis. I can tell that your commentary was very lucid, well thought out, and carefully researched.

Now to my opinion as to whether Moss can be mentioned as an elite receiver: You bet.

Can Moss be reasonable thought of as a rival for the best ever:

Why? That one is pretty easy.

Moss may be smart...he may be able to block...and he would even be the best receiver in the game today if it wasn't for Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne.

All of the above noted, Moss does things that no great receiver does...he dogs it when the ball isn't coming his way, he can't sell a fake, and he is tentative in the middle of the field. He's not even the best receiver on his own team when it comes to hustling over the middle.

Rice could do everything. He could be a possession receiver. He could be a deep game breaker, a linebacker de-cleating blocker, or the best decoy a #2 receiver could ever ask for. Rice didn't come to the NFL as the best ever...he just worked harder than anyone ever had, changed the way that receivers train for the game, and made his money abusing the best cover corner the NFL has ever seen.

If Moss is a bigger version of Deion Sanders, you've made my argument for me. Deion was great. Hell, he was f*cking awesome. He also got his balls beat in twice a year by Jerry until he defected from the Falcons. Rice owned Deion, along with the rest of the best cover guys of his generation.

Moss may have more natural ability, but in my estimation, that makes Jerry even more amazing. There were plenty of guys that were more physically talented than Jerry...but they all faded. Why? Because none of them had the once in a generation kind of work ethic that Jerry did.

Jerry is a guy that is considered in the conversation of the best football player ever (though in my estimation, that title still belongs to Jim Brown). Can Moss be mentioned in that conversation? No way.

The next "greatest receiver ever" will change the game the way Jerry did. Will it happen? Of course it will. Has it happened yet? Nope. Until it does, Jerry holds the title.
Originally posted by 49ertrue1:
Just looking for someone that has validity and some kind of real sense of the game. Not, "oh, i'm a niner fan & rice is god" If your objective, it's really easy to find things Moss owns Rice at.
You mention Moss not winning a superbowl when he got to N.E. with brady, finally on a good team. but don't forget, Moss was 1 crazy play(helmet catch) away from catching the winning TD & completing a perfect season which included 23 td catches & a record point setting team. That's not good enough? haha i mean, c'mon man. 2 years with brady = 36 tds. Thats not amazing? haha
Even got 11 with Cassell when brady got hurt. I mean,you guys cant see the facts? If has 3 seasons averaging 15 TD's,he will break Rice's record 7-8 seasons faster & 5-6 years younger.

To me it's easy to debate the two, then again, i prolly know more about football than you all do as an X player & current wide-out coach.

As you know more about football than we do, why ask us our opinion?

Noob with attitude
Moss = The most physically gifted WR of all time

Rice = The best WR of all time

/thread

[ Edited by BirdmanJr on Mar 25, 2010 at 09:20:58 ]
I'm not a Moss hater I would call him probably the 2nd best WR I've ever seen behind Rice. he's just not better. You shouldn't just call anybody that is gonna disagree with you a hater before we even respond. and for some strange reason you seemed to leave out Moss's work ethic and disinterest in games once his team is down. And Moss was on a stacked offense the day he entered the NFL.
This might actually be the worst thread of 2010.

Maybe ever?

Let the debate begin.
Who cares what he is on pace for? Wake me when he breaks the career records. Don't forget the rule changes that favor a high flying offense over the past decade.