There are 113 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

FCUK Robert Quinn

Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!

Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawsonwas supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.

Well, I still hope we draft him. I think he can be a dominent pass rusher!
Originally posted by socal9er42:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!

Absolutely.

It's just a wuestion of how to apply that pressure. There is no doubt that a very talented rusher, be he from the defensive line or linebacker corp, makes it exciting and a challenge for the other team to plan for.


but....

A good OC can usually figure out a way to defend, or even exploit the weaknesses of, a good rusher (e.g. run directly at an agressive player).

I believe having 4-5 players who each have 6-10 or so sacks, makes it tougher to plan for.

If you're running at a pass rusher you're not passing the ball...just saying.

And I'm pretty sure having 3-4 players who each have 6-10 sacks and 1 player who has 12+ is better.

We need another guy for offenses to worry about. Right now the main goal of the offense is to shut down Patrick Willis. Having a corner behind Willis doesn't help much. Having a ferocious pass rusher right next to him will make OC's think twice about blocking Willis and leaving the other guy to get to their QB.
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Apr 24, 2011 at 6:26 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by deep2crab:
Quinn's potential was to be a top 3 pick, IF he had a strong junior year. Well he didn't play his junior year so how can he be thought of in the same light as if he did? The argument that Quinn would have been a top 3 pick if he came out last year is not valid because the top 3 grade was given expecting him to impress in his junior year. He imo has bust written all over him because he simply hasn't produced against strong competition consistently. Not that he wont be good, just not worth the risk. We should target someone like Prince, a solid player who has proven himself against good competition

Let me get this straight...you don't want to give him credit for a season he couldn't play but you want to judge him and knock him down for the same reason?

And he's not being graded on possibly having a big season this past year. He's being graded based on what he's shown so far in his career.

Demarcus Ware didn't put up huge numbers against top teams either playing at Troy. If you can play, you can play. His pass rush abilities are clear as day experience and NFL coaching will only make him better.

Prince won't do much when the other teams QB has all day to throw the ball.

So you don't want to compare him to Gholdton, but you want to compare him to Ware though? Why? Cause Ware is way better? He's not DeMarcus and he's not Vernon. Basing him off another players success or failure isn't a good argument. If you look back a couple pages to why the Gholston/Quinn comparision started. Someone asked if anyone thinks Quinn reminds them of Gholston, another poster said not even close, or something to that extent. And I gave my opinion of Goholston when he enter the draft and now that Quinn is, and Gholston outranked him in everything.
Any his "great" Soph. is being overblown. He was considered a Top-10 pick if he followed his good Soph. year with another good Jr. year. Quinn is solely ranked high off potential and to me he doesn't merit being ranked higher then more productive players who's play is visually evident, unlike Quinn's.

Did I compare him with Ware? I pointed out Ware - who is a very good 3-4 OLB didn't put up monster numbers against top competition but it didn't stop him from being a good NFL player. That's not saying Robert Quinn reminds me of Ware.

I already went over the difference between Gholston and Quinn. You don't want to agree that's your opinion just don't try to throw out blanket statements and judging a guy from a season that never was.

And his year isn't being overblown. He had a great year while being double teamed as a young and inexperienced player aka he got by with his physical abilities. Common logic would say with NFL level coaching and playing experience he would get better. That's why he's ranked so high. It's not blind potential just based of his measurables.

I didn't start the comparision towards Gholston, just made a point that by production in college and combine, Gholston was better. I was answering someones question on here that I did think they compare physically and, on a certain extent, production wise in college.
Regarding the Ware comparision, everyone on this board has compared Quinn to Ware and is absurd to me. Ware dominated the lower Division IA collegiate competition his final three seasons at Troy, as he finished his sophomore season with 19.5 tackles for loss and nine sacks, his junior season in 2003 with 16 TFL and six sacks and his senior season in 2004 with 18 TFL and 10 sacks. That's 2 more years of production then Quinn has. And Ware was only viewed as a Late 1st-Early 2nd, which is where Quinn should be rated at the highest, IMO.
Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!

Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawsonwas supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.



What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?

I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.

I think the term "shutdown CB" is often used too lightly. IMO, I say we should draft Robert Quinn at #7. Then target a guy like CB Ras-I Dowling in rounds 2-3 and/or Rashad Carmichael in round 3-4. Dowling has the ability to be #1 CB, and Carmichael has great ball skills. I think we could get better value there.
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.

I think the term "shutdown CB" is often used too lightly. IMO, I say we should draft Robert Quinn at #7. Then target a guy like CB Ras-I Dowling in rounds 2-3 and/or Rashad Carmichael in round 3-4. Dowling has the ability to be #1 CB, and Carmichael has great ball skills. I think we could get better value there.

Why not Prince, then QB, then Dontay Moch for Nevada in the 3rd. He has just as much potential as Quinn and more production too. He had 11.5 sacks in his Soph. year (just like Quinn) and followed that up with 6.5 his Jr. year, and 9 this year. More production and more athletic and can might be there in the 3rd. Then we could go Carmichael in the 4th or Skrine later in the draft. 2 new CBs, and an OLB with "potential" to be very good and at a lower risk.

Edit: Just to add about Dontay Moch. He had 17 TFL as a Soph., 20 as a Jr., and 22 his Sr. year.
[ Edited by Travisty13 on Apr 24, 2011 at 6:56 PM ]
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.

I think the term "shutdown CB" is often used too lightly. IMO, I say we should draft Robert Quinn at #7. Then target a guy like CB Ras-I Dowling in rounds 2-3 and/or Rashad Carmichael in round 3-4. Dowling has the ability to be #1 CB, and Carmichael has great ball skills. I think we could get better value there.


Those have been my sentiments for quite some time. However, I'm now hearing more and more Quinn is best suited as a 4-3 DE. I'm jumping on DB at 7 bandwagon.
My top choices at #7: (in order)

1. CB Patrick Peterson (I dont think he'll be there.)
2. DE/OLB Robert Quinn
3. CB Prince Amukamara
4. Trade Down
[ Edited by PTulini on Apr 24, 2011 at 7:09 PM ]
Originally posted by ishkabibel:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.

I think the term "shutdown CB" is often used too lightly. IMO, I say we should draft Robert Quinn at #7. Then target a guy like CB Ras-I Dowling in rounds 2-3 and/or Rashad Carmichael in round 3-4. Dowling has the ability to be #1 CB, and Carmichael has great ball skills. I think we could get better value there.


Those have been my sentiments for quite some time. However, I'm now hearing more and more Quinn is best suited as a 4-3 DE. I'm jumping on DB at 7 bandwagon.

I agree that Robert Quinn may be a better fit as a 4-3 DE, but he will do great as a 3-4 OLB as well. Quinn will offer us great versatility because 49ers' DC Vic Fangio plans to employ both 3-4 and 4-3 schemes in his defense. That is why I think Robert Quinn would be a great fit for us.
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:
Originally posted by Travisty13:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!

Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawsonwas supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.



What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?

I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?

I hadn't thought of that... He did play on pretty talented team! There is no doubt that there are more question marks with Quinn than the other two CB's. Which equates to greater potential to bust... Not saying he will, we just don't know all that we need to know about Quinn.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by socal9er42:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!

Absolutely.

It's just a wuestion of how to apply that pressure. There is no doubt that a very talented rusher, be he from the defensive line or linebacker corp, makes it exciting and a challenge for the other team to plan for.


but....

A good OC can usually figure out a way to defend, or even exploit the weaknesses of, a good rusher (e.g. run directly at an agressive player).

I believe having 4-5 players who each have 6-10 or so sacks, makes it tougher to plan for.

If you're running at a pass rusher you're not passing the ball...just saying.And I'm pretty sure having 3-4 players who each have 6-10 sacks and 1 player who has 12+ is better.

We need another guy for offenses to worry about. Right now the main goal of the offense is to shut down Patrick Willis. Having a corner behind Willis doesn't help much. Having a ferocious pass rusher right next to him will make OC's think twice about blocking Willis and leaving the other guy to get to their QB.

EXACTLY!

A good OC with a good offense knows to exploit the Defense. Run out of passing formations, pass out of running formations. Third and long. The Defense brings out their "Stud" pass rusher. OC KNOWS he's coming. Creates an open space. Exploit the open space. Draw/Trap/Shovel is usually good for about 6 yards, and frequently more if other defenders over react or you have a talented running back.

Just sayin'.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by Kalen49ers:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.

Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.

Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.

I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers

They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.

I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.

I disagree. Since 2007 defensive end is the bust filled position. That's according to Clayton.

You have no use for a defensive end who can't get to the QB. Maybin, Gholdston, Ayers. Completely useless.

Cornerback is just alot safer selection. If Prince was a let down he could still be moved to safety or play opposite corner or nickel corner. You can completely whiff on a corner, like Rumph, but it's alot less likely.

Great pass rushers also emerge from mid round picks alot more frequently than great corners too.