Originally posted by PTulini: Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!
Absolutely.
It's just a wuestion of how to apply that pressure. There is no doubt that a very talented rusher, be he from the defensive line or linebacker corp, makes it exciting and a challenge for the other team to plan for.
but....
A good OC can usually figure out a way to defend, or even exploit the weaknesses of, a good rusher (e.g. run directly at an agressive player).
I believe having 4-5 players who each have 6-10 or so sacks, makes it tougher to plan for.
If you're running at a pass rusher you're not passing the ball...just saying.And I'm pretty sure having 3-4 players who each have 6-10 sacks and 1 player who has 12+ is better.
We need another guy for offenses to worry about. Right now the main goal of the offense is to shut down Patrick Willis. Having a corner behind Willis doesn't help much. Having a ferocious pass rusher right next to him will make OC's think twice about blocking Willis and leaving the other guy to get to their QB.
EXACTLY!
A good OC with a good offense knows to exploit the Defense. Run out of passing formations, pass out of running formations. Third and long. The Defense brings out their "Stud" pass rusher. OC KNOWS he's coming. Creates an open space. Exploit the open space. Draw/Trap/Shovel is usually good for about 6 yards, and frequently more if other defenders over react or you have a talented running back.
Just sayin'.
The point was that's not a way to stop a pass rusher from getting to the QB, that's changing your playbook around. Sure would be nice to face the colts or Packers and have them get rid of the passrusher by going to the run.
And Quinn plays the run pretty well actually. Not everyone is like Dwight Freeney.
Why not Prince, then QB, then Dontay Moch for Nevada in the 3rd. He has just as much potential as Quinn and more production too. He had 11.5 sacks in his Soph. year (just like Quinn) and followed that up with 6.5 his Jr. year, and 9 this year. More production and more athletic and can might be there in the 3rd. Then we could go Carmichael in the 4th or Skrine later in the draft. 2 new CBs, and an OLB with "potential" to be very good and at a lower risk.
Edit: Just to add about Dontay Moch. He had 17 TFL as a Soph., 20 as a Jr., and 22 his Sr. year.
Moch is strictly a speed guy. You're also taking a big risk that a guy worth while would be available. You know you need a pass rusher in the worst way. If Quinn is there and Patrick Peterson is gone they have to take him.
Quinn and a guy like Curtis Brown or Ras I Downling is better for this teams success. Hell Spencer and Clements aren't even terrible. The corners we have right now are good enough if we just have a decent pass rush. Last year we were able to scheme much better and generate more of a pass rush and the same defensive backs looked way better.
Originally posted by PTulini: Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!
Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawsonwas supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.
What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?
I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?
Quinn was double teamed with all those guys on the team. That should say more about him in a positive light.
Originally posted by PTulini: Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!
Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawson was supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.
What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?
I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?
Quinn was double teamed with all those guys on the team. That should say more about him in a positive light.
Where is this "he was double teamed" coming from? Go to youtube, type in "christian ponder", then watch him vs. UNC ('09). It shows Ponders ever dropback that entire game. I made sure to focus solely on Quinn (#42) who lined up almost exclusively at RDE next to Austin (#9). Know what I saw? Austin got the double teams and FSU's LT - Andrew Datko, was usually match up on Quinn 1-on-1 and completely took him out of the game. Quinn looked ineffective, just like I've been saying, against good LTs. The closest Quinn came to getting to Ponder was on 1 play (the Ponder fumble caused by Sturdivant). Here I'll just add the video for everyone to watch.
Originally posted by dtg_9er: Ideally, you want probowl players at every position; but how hard is it to find a great pass rusher? Very difficult judging by the 9ers inability to find one in over ten years. They need to keep bringing in people until they find the right guy. CBs are a bit easier to find and DCs can help them out by using various schemes including zone and man.
Imagine a really great pass rusher along side J Smith! The opposing team would have to change the whole game plan. I'm not arguing against picking a shut down corner but good corners are available in FA.
Looking back, Dean was picked up as a free agent and Haley was drafted. If Baalke can find a FA out there fine, pick a CB in the draft. No one has suggested that there is one however. I would like to see at least two OLBs drafted this year.
I don't know if I agree that shutdown CB's are easier to find than dominant passrushers
They're not. Which is why it's presumptuous to think we can find a stud corner in this draft.
I'd rather take the pass rusher as more of them workout.
I think the term "shutdown CB" is often used too lightly. IMO, I say we should draft Robert Quinn at #7. Then target a guy like CB Ras-I Dowling in rounds 2-3 and/or Rashad Carmichael in round 3-4. Dowling has the ability to be #1 CB, and Carmichael has great ball skills. I think we could get better value there.
You'll notice that in my original post I said that we could pick up "good" CBs in free agency, not shut down CBs. There is no surething shutdown CB in this draft. So the safer path is to take Quinn and pick up a free agent CB as there don't seem to be any pass rushers worth while in free agency. This is obviously my opinion and I hope someone can point out some free agent pass rushers as the 9ers should go after the best available.
Originally posted by PTulini: Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!
Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawson was supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.
What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?
I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?
Quinn was double teamed with all those guys on the team. That should say more about him in a positive light.
Where is this "he was double teamed" coming from? Go to youtube, type in "christian ponder", then watch him vs. UNC ('09). It shows Ponders ever dropback that entire game. I made sure to focus solely on Quinn (#42) who lined up almost exclusively at RDE next to Austin (#9). Know what I saw? Austin got the double teams and FSU's LT - Andrew Datko, was usually match up on Quinn 1-on-1 and completely took him out of the game. Quinn looked ineffective, just like I've been saying, against good LTs. The closest Quinn came to getting to Ponder was on 1 play (the Ponder fumble caused by Sturdivant). Here I'll just add the video for everyone to watch.
Are you just messing with me?
This also kind of further proves how you do your scouting. Quinn was double teamed in the 2nd play shown there. He rushes the qb few plays later and I'm sure I'd see more if I wanted to keep watching.
I remember what I saw when watching his games and he definitely got his fair share of double teams.
And just to make sure I wasn't going crazy here is a quote from one draft site
"On an extremely talented UNC defensive line, saw a lot of double teams in 2009"
Originally posted by PTulini: Bottom line: Agree or disagree, WE CAN'T GIVE AN OPPOSING QB ALL DAY TO THROW THE BALL!! A CB (no matter how good) can only cover for so long before things begin to break down. We haven't had a consistant pass rush in years. Our last player to record double digit sacks was Andre Carter, who had 12.5 sacks in 2002!
Agree. But if you don't have good cover corners, the QB can have the ball out in no time therefore making the good pass-rush ineffective. We can all agree we need both CBs and OLBs. Manny Lawson was supposed to become our rush OLB. Saying Quinn will or will not be better then Lawson isn't the question. We won't know til later. I'm saying Quinn hasn't shown me enough to merit everyones claim he's an "elite" pass rusher.
What you havent seen the you tubeclips of Austin making it easy for him to get sacks?
I'm not sure if this is serious or not, but you make a valid point. Who says Quinn's success isn't attributed to him playing for a UNC Defense that is littered with NFL quality talent at every position. Austin, Burney, Carter, Sturdivant, Deunta just to name a few of the players on that team expected to be drafted this year. Who says Quinn wasn't just a product of all that talent?
Quinn was double teamed with all those guys on the team. That should say more about him in a positive light.
Where is this "he was double teamed" coming from? Go to youtube, type in "christian ponder", then watch him vs. UNC ('09). It shows Ponders ever dropback that entire game. I made sure to focus solely on Quinn (#42) who lined up almost exclusively at RDE next to Austin (#9). Know what I saw? Austin got the double teams and FSU's LT - Andrew Datko, was usually match up on Quinn 1-on-1 and completely took him out of the game. Quinn looked ineffective, just like I've been saying, against good LTs. The closest Quinn came to getting to Ponder was on 1 play (the Ponder fumble caused by Sturdivant). Here I'll just add the video for everyone to watch.
Are you just messing with me?
This also kind of further proves how you do your scouting. Quinn was double teamed in the 2nd play shown there. He rushes the qb few plays later and I'm sure I'd see more if I wanted to keep watching.
I remember what I saw when watching his games and he definitely got his fair share of double teams.
And just to make sure I wasn't going crazy here is a quote from one draft site
"On an extremely talented UNC defensive line, saw a lot of double teams in 2009"
I believe Mayock has mentioned it at some point as well.
How I do my scouting? Lol. Neither of us are "scouts" we're casual fans with our own observations. What makes your "scouting" better then mine? Cause you watched it on tv while I had to watch that same video posted on youtube? Its the same thing. I highly doubt your getting coaches film, going home and breaking down everyone game by game. I've watched him too and didn't see him get double teamed. My observation and my opinion is not going to change. He's a high risk player, that hasn't shown enough, to me, to warrant a high pick.
In the 2nd play that you mentioned, the guard had open protection, so swung to help, but didn't even have to block Quinn cause he was taken out of the play. So I wouldn't call that a double team. And I never said he wasn't "ever" double teamed. He just wasn't as much as alot of you make it out to be. Alot of posters maked it sound like he was doubled every play and that's not even close to being true. And the play where you said he rushed the QB, that was the play where Sturdivant caused the fumble, and I mentioned that it was the closest he got to Ponder.
Edit: Just want it made clear. Do I think Quinn could turn into an "elite" pass-rusher? Sure. But that can be said about almost anyone too. I have no problem with Quinn, in general, I just don't believe the hype that he's that great based off 1 good year where he dominated lower level competition. Had he gotten to play his Jr. Year and dominated against some top teams, I could see it having some merit, but as it stands right now, I don't think he's deserving of it.
[ Edited by Travisty13 on Apr 25, 2011 at 5:15 AM ]
This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Originally posted by FL9er: This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Dick LeBeau disagrees. Ask him if guys like Ike Taylor are top level and get back to me on that
Originally posted by FL9er: This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Dick LeBeau disagrees. Ask him if guys like Ike Taylor are top level and get back to me on that
Originally posted by FL9er: This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Dick LeBeau disagrees. Ask him if guys like Ike Taylor are top level and get back to me on that
And the Baltimore Ravens. Look at their defense.
Seriously pass rush is more important, it's just football. Quinn vs. Prince should be a separate argument with that already in mind.
Im off the bandwagon, Tumor is too much of a scare to me to draft this guy at 7. He could be a beast but he also could have to retire in a couple of years if that thing acts up.
If we dont get Peterson I hope we draft the Prince
Originally posted by FL9er: This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Dick LeBeau disagrees. Ask him if guys like Ike Taylor are top level and get back to me on that
How many first rounders have P-burgh spent on outside linebacker? They draft athletic linebackers that fall and use blitz schemes to confuse the sh*t out of O lines.
BTW Pittsburgh's best and most important player is in their secondary. With him they're top 5 without him that great pass rush becomes an average defense. If you're talking about them historically and their run in the 90's they had Rod Woodson who just happens to be a Hall of Fame corner.
You're right that Pittsburgh currently has average corners but they don't have an average secondary. Just like Baltimore with Ed Reed.
[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 25, 2011 at 8:34 AM ]
Originally posted by FL9er: This argument is ridiculous. You need a top level cornerback AND pass rusher to be a top-flight defense. You can't even give the QB a high-five without drawing a 15-yard penalty, and with team's going more to a spread look, the shotgun, 3 step drops, etc. it kinda makes the pass rush less effective (see Super Bowl).
Can the 49ers matchup in the secondary with a New Orleans, Dallas, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Green Bay spread attack on offense, the elite teams in the NFC?
Dick LeBeau disagrees. Ask him if guys like Ike Taylor are top level and get back to me on that
How many first rounders have P-burgh spent on outside linebacker? They draft athletic linebackers that fall and use blitz schemes to confuse the sh*t out of O lines.
BTW Pittsburgh's best and most important player is in their secondary. With him they're top 5 without him that great pass rush becomes an average defense. If you're talking about them historically and their run in the 90's they had Rod Woodson who just happens to be a Hall of Fame corner.
You're right that Pittsburgh currently has average corners but they don't have an average secondary. Just like Baltimore with Ed Reed.
Both those teams do have an elite level safety but both have proven you don't need elite level corners.
New England finished 10th and 11th in total defense in 2008 & 2009 without Samuel. The Giants won a SB without an elite level corner but a tremendous front 4. Point is you don't need an elite level corner or even an elite level safety if you have a great pass rush, just a solid secondary and obviously a DC who knows how to use his talent.
I'm a big fan of Quinn and Prince and I'd be jumping and celebrating if we got one of them at #7, but at this point, I would select Quinn in the 1st round mainly because the drop off in talent for potential 3-4 OLBs is huge IMO. The value at corners are there in the 2nd and 3rd round with Dowling, C. Brown, Burton, D. House, Jalil Brown, Carmichael, Johnny Patrick, etc. The only pass rushers I see that are worth it in the 2nd and 3rd round are Sheard, Chris Carter, Acho, and possibly Romeus.
to be very good and at a lower risk.