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CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by jreff22:


Explain Dallas

What about Dallas?

I mentioned this in another thread. One thing to remember if you get a good pass rusher at OLB you're getting another guy in the front 7 that the other team's offense has to account for.

Right now we really only have 2 players with that - Justin Smith and of course Patrick Willis.

You put a stud rush OLB next to Patrick and now they have 2 guys who really need to be accounted for, that's tough to do when you have all the other players in the front 7.

Right now it's not that big of a deal for other teams. They double team Justin and get a guy to look for Willis every play trying to get him out of the picture.

A good corner doesn't do that since he's so far away from the LOS. If they want to avoid him they just don't throw to his side(and he has to be DAMN good for that to be avoided completely)
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by jreff22:


Explain Dallas

What about Dallas?

I mentioned this in another thread. One thing to remember if you get a good pass rusher at OLB you're getting another guy in the front 7 that the other team's offense has to account for.

Right now we really only have 2 players with that - Justin Smith and of course Patrick Willis.

You put a stud rush OLB next to Patrick and now they have 2 guys who really need to be accounted for, that's tough to do when you have all the other players in the front 7.

Right now it's not that big of a deal for other teams. They double team Justin and get a guy to look for Willis every play trying to get him out of the picture.

A good corner doesn't do that since he's so far away from the LOS. If they want to avoid him they just don't throw to his side(and he has to be DAMN good for that to be avoided completely)

The argument I keep hearing is a pass rusher makes opposing QB's apparently unable to play effectively. Dallas has one, but ended up 26th in passing D and is in the market for a CB. Why are they looking for CB's if pass rushers make mediocre CB's look good and are soooooo great at stopping the pass? Apparently it doesn't work in Dallas and I'm wondering why!
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by jreff22:


Explain Dallas

What about Dallas?

I mentioned this in another thread. One thing to remember if you get a good pass rusher at OLB you're getting another guy in the front 7 that the other team's offense has to account for.

Right now we really only have 2 players with that - Justin Smith and of course Patrick Willis.

You put a stud rush OLB next to Patrick and now they have 2 guys who really need to be accounted for, that's tough to do when you have all the other players in the front 7.

Right now it's not that big of a deal for other teams. They double team Justin and get a guy to look for Willis every play trying to get him out of the picture.

A good corner doesn't do that since he's so far away from the LOS. If they want to avoid him they just don't throw to his side(and he has to be DAMN good for that to be avoided completely)

The argument I keep hearing is a pass rusher makes opposing QB's apparently unable to play effectively. Dallas has one, but ended up 26th in passing D and is in the market for a CB. Why are they looking for CB's if pass rushers make mediocre CB's look good and are soooooo great at stopping the pass? Apparently it doesn't work in Dallas and I'm wondering why!

They have less than mediocre CBs? Of course you need good players at every position if you expect to be an elete team. Question is whether great CBs can win matches against great recievers if there is no pass rush? I like the argument that some coaches/systems can manufacture a pass rush through scheme. Then CBs may be more important?!

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 1, 2011 at 20:13:59 ]
With Dallas, they had Mike Jenkins playing like an UDFA. He was torched week in and week out, often giving ip on plays. He wasn't the only one either. Once Wade left and players were held accountable, they started tightening up a little on defense. Jenkins practically killed that defense single-handedly though.

To me, they (similar to us) show the importance of having solid safeties. It's probably the most underated position on the field and definitely on defense.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by jreff22:


Explain Dallas

What about Dallas?

I mentioned this in another thread. One thing to remember if you get a good pass rusher at OLB you're getting another guy in the front 7 that the other team's offense has to account for.

Right now we really only have 2 players with that - Justin Smith and of course Patrick Willis.

You put a stud rush OLB next to Patrick and now they have 2 guys who really need to be accounted for, that's tough to do when you have all the other players in the front 7.

Right now it's not that big of a deal for other teams. They double team Justin and get a guy to look for Willis every play trying to get him out of the picture.

A good corner doesn't do that since he's so far away from the LOS. If they want to avoid him they just don't throw to his side(and he has to be DAMN good for that to be avoided completely)

The argument I keep hearing is a pass rusher makes opposing QB's apparently unable to play effectively. Dallas has one, but ended up 26th in passing D and is in the market for a CB. Why are they looking for CB's if pass rushers make mediocre CB's look good and are soooooo great at stopping the pass? Apparently it doesn't work in Dallas and I'm wondering why!

They have less than mediocre CBs? Of course you need good players at every position if you expect to be an elete team. Question is whether great CBs can win matches against great recievers if there is no pass rush? I like the argument that some coaches/systems can manufacture a pass rush through scheme. Then CBs may be more important?!

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.
the best way to disrupt an O is to mess up the internal clock that a qb operates by. the best way to do that is pressure.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

eric wright and tim mccyer(sp) to an extent
Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.
if our cbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

[ Edited by communist on Feb 2, 2011 at 06:39:16 ]
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.
if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.
if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.
what about a 2nd-rounder?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

I would not put any of those guys in the category of excellent, pure, pass rusher. A couple were good, in the Justin Smith-overall way, but not guys who made the other teams change their offense to deal with them.

You will note that I used the term "high quality, if not shutdown" in my post regarding CBs. Lott and Wright were one of the best tandoms the 9ers had. They were early 80s and there is a long list since then. None of the pass rushers you list come close to their category, only Dean and Haley could be mentioned with them.

Edit: Young played both tackle and end; and I would put him on the same level as Dean and Haley--just not as a pure pass rusher.

Edit 2: Doleman was past his prime when the 9ers got him. And Andre Carter was occasionally difficult to block but not always.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 2, 2011 at 07:12:32 ]
its pretty much between Von Miller and Prince Amukamara
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.

Tim Harris, Doleman, Bryant Young, Andre Carter. Now, besides Deon for one year, how many shut down corners have we had?

Sorry, I keep thinking of additions and clarifications! What I want out of the 7th position in the first round is a difference maker. Someone who can come in and make the offense change its strategy. CBs are rarely asked to do that but a great pass rusher can.

Quinn is the one guy this year who I think is most likely to be that guy. Both Peterson and Prince are good CBs but that position might shut down one WR per play. A great pass rusher knocks the QB down--often. That impacts the QB play and changes the game. If they need to double or triple team him it opens up opportunities for the rest of the D.
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