There are 82 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.

Shut down, not many in the league in general. But guys like Haden, DRC, McCourty, Talib for instance do very well for their teams. I am not sold on any CB we have and all (Adams gets a pass) could be replaced. The guys who were drafted to rush the passer and failed Gholston, Maybin, English, Ayers, Graham, and Hughes end up being useless. Granted any player can turn it around and its still early for most. Picking so high this year CB is safer and statistically smarter. When I watched Matthews at the Senior Bowl I wanted him badly and he turned out to be a monster. I'm not getting the same feeling about Miller. I could be wrong of course but CB seems safer. If we didn't need O Line last year and were drafting at 7 Haden and Graham would of been available. Looking back now Haden was the smarter choice of the two. Different players this year with different skill sets for sure. I'm still banking on Peterson at 7....if he's gone Miller, Prince and possibly a DL could be in the mix........should be interesting
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

Valid point.

I'm really not trying to say that great players are easy to find in any position. We are just talking about whether one position is a relatively easier position to fill than another. That's all. The number of real shut down corners can probably be counted on one hand. There are many more demon pass rushers. But they are not a dime a dozen and you have to be able to spot them.

Why don't we have one? It just points up the futility of the Niner FO in evaluating and bringing in the right talent; either through draft, trade or FA. We haven't drafted for a pass rusher as we should have been. And the first rounders we did take (Lawson and Balmer) were busts as pass rushers. I haven't been a fan of the team's FO so far. Hopefully, this year things will be different.

I'm with you on one thing: A great pass rusher will make a greater difference than a great cb. But I think that there is ONE cb in this draft that is worthy of being first on our board; Peterson. If we get him, we may still be able to land one of SEVERAL great pass rushers IMO. If Peterson is not there? Definitely, I'm for taking a pass rusher high. Quinn, if it were my money. (Unless Harbaugh wants to take a QB; most important position and all that).
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
i dont care about sacks in first place...i care about constant pressure that forces the QB to throw second-best passes or worse.
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
i dont care about sacks in first place...i care about constant pressure that forces the QB to throw second-best passes or worse.

OK, out of the draft, how many different positions can you select a future CB from? One. Now, how many different positions can you possibly find an effective pass rusher? Effective pass rushers have been developed from OG's, DE, OLBs, ILBs, even SS and FBs,...DTs,....
In defending the against the pass, BOTH are important. If you have a pass rusher that can get to the QB then the QB will be either sacked or forced to throw a bad pass that either goes incomplete or gets intercepted.

A shut down corner, can cause the QB to hold the ball longer than we wants which may lead to a sack, the ball being thrown away or an interception. It also allows you to double others or blitz more people which again leads to the above.

The key is which one can also better suppport the against the run when the otherside isn't passing. I just want Patrick Willis type of player at either of the position.
Originally posted by WildBill:
In defending the against the pass, BOTH are important. If you have a pass rusher that can get to the QB then the QB will be either sacked or forced to throw a bad pass that either goes incomplete or gets intercepted.

A shut down corner, can cause the QB to hold the ball longer than we wants which may lead to a sack, the ball being thrown away or an interception. It also allows you to double others or blitz more people which again leads to the above.

The key is which one can also better suppport the against the run when the otherside isn't passing. I just want Patrick Willis type of player at either of the position.

You don't have that choice because we don't need an ILB. To answer your question, a CB that can blanket a receiver helps against the run more. You are allowed to bring 8 in the box to rush the passer or play the run. With a weak CB, you must help in coverage using only 7 in the box and two of those 7 being "pass rushers" which would make you susceptible to the run.

This is why you still need both, but one allows you to do a lot more.

Scenario 1: Let's say you have a premier pass rusher combined with Clements and Spencer. How many times will that rusher create pressure? Not often, which means they can still hit us deep.

Scenario 2: Let's say we have a cover corner with the front 7 we have now. How many times do you think that CB will be beat deep? Not very often.

There is a higher probability to allow big plays with weaker DB's than there would be with a weak pass rush.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by WildBill:
In defending the against the pass, BOTH are important. If you have a pass rusher that can get to the QB then the QB will be either sacked or forced to throw a bad pass that either goes incomplete or gets intercepted.

A shut down corner, can cause the QB to hold the ball longer than we wants which may lead to a sack, the ball being thrown away or an interception. It also allows you to double others or blitz more people which again leads to the above.

The key is which one can also better suppport the against the run when the otherside isn't passing. I just want Patrick Willis type of player at either of the position.

You don't have that choice because we don't need an ILB. To answer your question, a CB that can blanket a receiver helps against the run more. You are allowed to bring 8 in the box to rush the passer or play the run. With a weak CB, you must help in coverage using only 7 in the box and two of those 7 being "pass rushers" which would make you susceptible to the run.

This is why you still need both, but one allows you to do a lot more.

Scenario 1: Let's say you have a premier pass rusher combined with Clements and Spencer. How many times will that rusher create pressure? Not often, which means they can still hit us deep.

Scenario 2: Let's say we have a cover corner with the front 7 we have now. How many times do you think that CB will be beat deep? Not very often.

There is a higher probability to allow big plays with weaker DB's than there would be with a weak pass rush.

Uh, I think you misunderstood what I what I am saying. I am not saying in the last sentence we need an inside backer, just saying I want whatever of the two positions we do chose, that they can also support the run. Dieon Sanders was a great shutdown for us and the pokes, but he still had the weakness of bad run support as opposed to a Revis. Same can be said of rusher.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
i dont care about sacks in first place...i care about constant pressure that forces the QB to throw second-best passes or worse.

OK, out of the draft, how many different positions can you select a future CB from? One. Now, how many different positions can you possibly find an effective pass rusher? Effective pass rushers have been developed from OG's, DE, OLBs, ILBs, even SS and FBs,...DTs,....
look at the colts...they dont have any premium CB but they do have TWO pass-rushers, one of them was a 1st-round pick, by the way.
though they have these CBs, they still have an effective pass-rush...if you take a shutdown-CB, who will be help from day one, you will cover ONE target. but if you cant create pressure, that coverage will be useless, just look at rivers or manning and their WR-material. manning and rivers dont care about shutdown-corner but they do care about pass-rush a lot...i still have that game against the chargers, where manning ate a lot of grass. but when he had protection, he could throw nice passes, which werent been defended by their corners very well (iirc, both starting corners are 1st-round choices).
I'm right because Bill Walsh selected three DB that became a constant throughout three superbowls.

Lol. Jk
If it comes down to this:

Dareus or Prince?

I pick Dareus. I see him as very similar to J Smith - solid vs run and pass. And Prince is overrated and not the shut down CB most people see him as.
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
i dont care about sacks in first place...i care about constant pressure that forces the QB to throw second-best passes or worse.

OK, out of the draft, how many different positions can you select a future CB from? One. Now, how many different positions can you possibly find an effective pass rusher? Effective pass rushers have been developed from OG's, DE, OLBs, ILBs, even SS and FBs,...DTs,....
look at the colts...they dont have any premium CB but they do have TWO pass-rushers, one of them was a 1st-round pick, by the way.
though they have these CBs, they still have an effective pass-rush...if you take a shutdown-CB, who will be help from day one, you will cover ONE target. but if you cant create pressure, that coverage will be useless, just look at rivers or manning and their WR-material. manning and rivers dont care about shutdown-corner but they do care about pass-rush a lot...i still have that game against the chargers, where manning ate a lot of grass. but when he had protection, he could throw nice passes, which werent been defended by their corners very well (iirc, both starting corners are 1st-round choices).

They haven't had the stingiest defense either. Their offense has saved them more times than their defense in the past 10 years. There's also a reason why they can only win one superbowl.
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by communist:
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Pass Rusher is just easier to find. Good CB's are not.

I disagree completely, go back the last 3 years and you will find more busts at OLB then CB.

Conversely, How many shut down corners are there in the league, versus, how many good pass rushers. You have to look at both OLBs in the 3-4 and include DEs from the 4-3. I really cannot say with authority, but my very strong impression is that there are more of the latter.
who cares? if your pass-rush is bad, a shut-down corner wont help you anywhere...

if pass-rushers are easy to find, why dont we have any reliable pass-rusher at olb????

How big of an impact (sack wise) do you expect a rookie OLB to have? You sound like you are expecting double digit sacks right away.
i dont care about sacks in first place...i care about constant pressure that forces the QB to throw second-best passes or worse.

OK, out of the draft, how many different positions can you select a future CB from? One. Now, how many different positions can you possibly find an effective pass rusher? Effective pass rushers have been developed from OG's, DE, OLBs, ILBs, even SS and FBs,...DTs,....
look at the colts...they dont have any premium CB but they do have TWO pass-rushers, one of them was a 1st-round pick, by the way.
though they have these CBs, they still have an effective pass-rush...if you take a shutdown-CB, who will be help from day one, you will cover ONE target. but if you cant create pressure, that coverage will be useless, just look at rivers or manning and their WR-material. manning and rivers dont care about shutdown-corner but they do care about pass-rush a lot...i still have that game against the chargers, where manning ate a lot of grass. but when he had protection, he could throw nice passes, which werent been defended by their corners very well (iirc, both starting corners are 1st-round choices).

Explain Dallas
Since 1980 I can think of two excellent pass rushers on the 9ers--Haley and Dean. They had quite a few more CBs who were high quality, if not shut down. So, since the 9ers have not found a pass rusher since Haley, I think pass rushers are more difficult to find...at least in the bay area.